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**GREY LENSMAN**

WIND AT SOLAR CAN BE EFFECTIVE ON A LOCAL SCALE AT POINT OF USE. THERE IS NO DOUBT OF THAT.

I PUT UP WIND CONCEPT DESIGN AND A CALIFORNIA GROUP TOOK IT UP. THEY BUILT A SCALE WORKING MODEL AND PROVED THAT IN THE FOOTPRINT OF A MASSIVE 3MW WIND TOWER THEY COULD GENERATE 100MW. SHOWS HOW INEFFICIENT CURRENT FAN DESIGNS ARE.

THE PROBLEM IS ENGINEERING CERTAIN COMPONENTS TO WITHSTAND THE LOADS AND FATIGUE STRESS FOR FULL SCALE USE. THEY ARE WORKING ON THAT.

THE POINT IS, CURRENT BIRD MINCERS ARE PATHETIC AND BUILT FOR SUBSIDY NOT EFFICIENT OPERATION.

GL

**Dinsdale Piranha**

I wonder, has anybody ever considered fabricating the wind-turbine towers out of solar-collectors?

**GREY LENSMAN**

SOLAR IS VERY INEFFICIENT.

1. ENERGY COST OF PRODUCTION, IT TAKES ABOUT 20 YEARS TO GET THE SAME OUTPUT AS THEY CONSUMED BEING MANUFACTURED.

2. HIGH MAINTENANCE, THE SURFACE NEEDS TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR AT ALL TIMES. BIOFILMS DEGRADE THAT, ACID CLEANING RESTORES THE CLARITY BUT ETCHES THE SURFACE SO IT CLOUDS QUICKER, A VICIOUS CYCLE.

3 OUTPUT IS SO VARIABLE, THUS NEEDING BATTERIES AND INVERTERS WHICH ADDS TO COST AND MAINTENANCE.

GL

**EndTheFed**

Solar panels are now under $1 a watt. No batteries required for grid tie. Local home produced solar is the way to go not large utility scale. 2,000 watts of grid tie solar would bring my utility bill to around zero(can't be exact, can't predict the weather). Figure a $4,000 grid tie only system with no batteries and my average utility bill around $40 gives a 9 year payback on a system with a 20+ year lifespan. Yes I conserve a lot of energy, LED lighting, some solar hot air for heating etc.

Distributed production is the way to go in areas with enough sun to make it pay, add in wind and many homeowners could be producing more than they use and getting paid by the utility company in states where the laws are favorable like MN.

**Dinsdale Piranha**

GREY LENSMAN Wrote:

SOLAR IS VERY INEFFICIENT.

1. ENERGY COST OF PRODUCTION, IT TAKES ABOUT 20 YEARS TO GET THE SAME OUTPUT AS THEY CONSUMED BEING MANUFACTURED.

2. HIGH MAINTENANCE, THE SURFACE NEEDS TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR AT ALL TIMES. BIOFILMS DEGRADE THAT, ACID CLEANING RESTORES THE CLARITY BUT ETCHES THE SURFACE SO IT CLOUDS QUICKER, A VICIOUS CYCLE.

3 OUTPUT IS SO VARIABLE, THUS NEEDING BATTERIES AND INVERTERS WHICH ADDS TO COST AND MAINTENANCE.

GL

I see watt you mean. chuckle

**GREY LENSMAN**

LIGHTING

INCANDESCENT 100W
TWISTY 20W
LED 5W

SUPPOSED SAME LIGHT OUTPUT

HERE THE BUMMER
INCAN LIFETIME ONE YEAR
TWISTY 5 TEARS
LED ??????????

PLUS NEW TWISTY NOW SEEM TO GO PHUT AFTER 12 MONTHS, WTF

LED IS THE WAY TO GO BUT LIMITED CHOICES AT THE MOMENT

GL

**GREY LENSMAN**

GL

**The Other Side** lop guest User ID: 88214 04-08-2012 11:01 AM

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L...report.gif

**GREY LENSMAN**

THE OTHER SIDE

INTERESTING CHART BUT POSSIBLY INACCURATE

TAKE WIND

THEY QUOTE 34% UTILISATION WHEREAS IT VERY RARELY REACHES 25%

PLUS THEY DONT MENTION THE STANDBYE POWER YOU NEED WITH IT.

GL

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 42015 04-08-2012 11:39 AM

Solar and other renewable energy should get the same subsities as big oil/gas. The conservatives love to see solar go out of business. Drill babies, drill.

**The Other Side** lop guest User ID: 88214 04-08-2012 11:48 AM

GREY LENSMAN Wrote:

THE OTHER SIDE

INTERESTING CHART BUT POSSIBLY INACCURATE

TAKE WIND

THEY QUOTE 34% UTILISATION WHEREAS IT VERY RARELY REACHES 25%

PLUS THEY DONT MENTION THE STANDBYE POWER YOU NEED WITH IT.

GL

The chart is probably a bit dated...they're only just finding the pitfalls associated with the technology. However, why choose the most expensive technology on the list. It's a behaviour so at odds with commercial principles it seems bizarre.

**GREY LENSMAN**

SOLAR AND SOLAR THERMAL (LIQUID SALT)

THE MAINTENANCE IS MASSIVE AS WELL TO KEEP AT PEAK PERFORMANCE.

GL

**GLNLI** lop guest User ID: 88810 04-15-2012 04:11 AM

YOU NEED TO CHECK OUT HOW MANY GERMAN SOLAR HAVE GONE BUST RECENTLY INCLUDING THE BIGGEST.

GL

**GREY LENSMAN**

HERE IS THE GERMAN LINK

QUOTE

http://www.spiegel.de/international/busi...90,00.html

Bankruptcies Have German Solar on the Ropes
The German solar industry is at a turning point. The bankruptcy of Q-Cells this week shows that the days of German solar cell production are numbered. Asian competitors took the lead years ago, and German government subsidies were part of the problem.

A String of Bankruptcies
In December 2011, two major solar companies slid into bankruptcy: Berlin-based Solon and Erlangen-based Solar Millennium. In the case of Solon, Indian firm Microsol acquired the core business; but of the company’s 1,000 employees, only 400 remain employed today. Solar Millennium’s bankruptcy came as a major blow to thousands of small investors who had lent the firm money.

In March 2012, Freiburg-based Scheuten Solar, the firm that presented what was the world’s largest solar module at the time eight years ago, declared bankruptcy. The same month, power plant producer Solarhybrid and the Frankfurt an der Oder-based Odersun, which had been prestige projects supported by political leaders in the eastern state of Brandenburg, also filed for insolvency proceedings. Other bankruptcies are likely to follow.

The worst hit in the German solar crisis are companies that made bad business decisions. Most of the companies effected failed to wean themselves from reliance on government subsidies. The companies had all been aware that the market was rapidly changing, but they reacted too late or too slowly. Solar subsidies had been a highly effective political means of promoting the environmentally friendly technology, but in a rapidly maturing market, they are quickly losing their impact.

And the problem isn’t the recent cuts to solar subsidies. The problem has been mismanagement across the industry in Germany.

UNQUOTE

HAVE A SUNNY DAY

GL