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**Honest Abe**

Terrible advice being given out here, here are the facts, your life does depend on this.

The 65 pound gelatin block rose up to about a 45-degree angle immediately after firing.

==========
Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing

Test # Bird 1
Bare gelatin block
(Nominal 10% concentration)

Cartridge : 12 gauge Winchester Super Speed Xtra 7 1/2 shot, 2 3/4 inches, 1 ounce

Block Calibration : 3.3 ± 0.05 inch penetration @ 597 ± 0.5 ft/sec

Block Calibration temperature : 36.1 ± 0.05 Degrees Fahrenheit

Block Core temperature : 37.9 ± 0.05 Degrees Fahrenheit

Bullet Performance:

Impact Velocity : 1317 ± 0.5 feet/second
Deepest Penetration Depth : 5.9 ± 0.05 Inch
Maximum Crack Diameter : 4.5 ± 0.05 Inch
Max Crack Diameter Location : 2.3 ± 0.05 Inch
Cavitation Depth : 0.0-5.9 ± 0.05 Inch

Notes:
Weapon - New England Firearms Pardner, with 24.0" barrel and cylinder choke.

Distance - 10.0 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face

Test site conditions - 67 deg F, 46% relative humidity

Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 6 minutes

Bullet recovered weight - All shot pellets and wadding recovered

Bullet recovered average diameter - 0.090 ± 0.0005"

Bullet recovered length - Not applicable.

Shot pattern was 3.8" in diameter on the impact face of the gelatin block.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Side View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Top View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Bullet View.JPG

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index...81023.html

FBI requires 12 inch penetration. Things like denim jackets will stop rounds from doing any major damage that do not have at least 12 inches of penetration into ballistics gel.

**try again** lop guest User ID: 63168 08-18-2012 07:48 PM

Skeletor Wrote:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Side View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Top View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Bullet View.JPG

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index...81023.html

FBI requires 12 inch penetration. Things like denim jackets will stop rounds from doing any major damage that do not have at least 12 inches of penetration into ballistics gel.

Link Failure, Please3 fixed would like to see the balistics gel results

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 114335 08-18-2012 07:50 PM

Killed a deer once with a pellet gun. Shot it right behind the ear at 30 yards. You'd be suprised what is effective. Might not be optimum but in the right hands it'll get the job done.

**Honest Abe**

More testing
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

**Ohio Dude**

I like short barelled shotguns because you can clear out a whole hallway in one shot. I highly recommend a breach gun, and by that I mean a folding stock and pistol grip so you don't get your gun caught in a doorway.

**Honest Abe**

try again Wrote:

Skeletor Wrote:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Side View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Top View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Bullet View.JPG

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index...81023.html

FBI requires 12 inch penetration. Things like denim jackets will stop rounds from doing any major damage that do not have at least 12 inches of penetration into ballistics gel.

Link Failure, Please3 fixed would like to see the balistics gel results

Fixed link

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 115374 08-18-2012 07:58 PM

.22 short is what most all the old WWII vets used to carry, best get off me Gun there is. Unless you just want to destroy someone but with a .22 short at close range you can do very little damage or kill them. We always used a .22 short to kill Hogs, works great at close range and properly placed. Plus if you deal with the court the fact that you used a "low power" round can go strongly in your favor.
But I killed a Bear with Bird shot when I was a kid, it was coming through the screen door and one shot up close it dropped like a rock. I imagine unless you live in a humungous Mansion you'll be close enough for bird shot to bee plenty effective, you can always cut the casing and basically have a soft slug if you're just evil.

**still not right** lop guest User ID: 63168 08-18-2012 08:02 PM

Skeletor Wrote:

try again Wrote:
Skeletor Wrote:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Side View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Top View.JPG
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Bird 1 Bullet View.JPG

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index...81023.html

FBI requires 12 inch penetration. Things like denim jackets will stop rounds from doing any major damage that do not have at least 12 inches of penetration into ballistics gel.

Link Failure, Please3 fixed would like to see the balistics gel results

Fixed link

uh....
that link takes me to this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u810PTA5...1524586934

**my bad nvm** lop guest User ID: 63168 08-18-2012 08:03 PM

still not right Wrote:

Skeletor Wrote:
try again Wrote:
Link Failure, Please3 fixed would like to see the balistics gel results

Fixed link

uh....
that link takes me to this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u810PTA5...1524586934

Never mind was a advert at the top of the page need to scroll down
my bad

**Honest Abe**

LoP Guest Wrote:

.22 short is what most all the old WWII vets used to carry, best get off me Gun there is. Unless you just want to destroy someone but with a .22 short at close range you can do very little damage or kill them. We always used a .22 short to kill Hogs, works great at close range and properly placed. Plus if you deal with the court the fact that you used a "low power" round can go strongly in your favor.
But I killed a Bear with Bird shot when I was a kid, it was coming through the screen door and one shot up close it dropped like a rock. I imagine unless you live in a humungous Mansion you'll be close enough for bird shot to bee plenty effective, you can always cut the casing and basically have a soft slug if you're just evil.

If the shot does not separate from the wad it will act as a slug. It begins to separate by design at very short distances. You may want to thank a higher power for saving your butt from that bear. If you must use bird shot look up wax slugs, but don't tinker with the weight power ratio, people have blew up their guns that way.

**Honest Abe**

Also a .22 short is a terrible get off me gun, if you are being pinned and you have one shot you want to stop the threat now. There have been people shot by 5.56 nato and not reported feeling it till hours after the event. However any gun is better than no gun. Use what you can use effectively. I just wouldn't want to be in a fight for my life, and have to rely on getting a head shot with a .22 pistol.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 113295 08-18-2012 08:09 PM

You dont want to get shot with bird shot from a shotgun... With a denim jacket on or not.

Its a ballistics test and numbers... When you get shot from 10 feet away wearing a denim jacket by a 12 gauge with bird shot, those numbers dont mean dick.

As proven here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdZDL5KNrWQ

Boo ya... Im the winner of this thread.

**Honest Abe** · (This post was last modified: 08-18-2012 08:23 PM by Honest Abe.)

LoP Guest Wrote:

You dont want to get shot with bird shot from a shotgun... With a denim jacket on or not.

Its a ballistics test and numbers... When you get shot from 10 feet away wearing a denim jacket by a 12 gauge with bird shot, those numbers dont mean dick.

As proven here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdZDL5KNrWQ

Boo ya... Im the winner of this thread.

Fail, a gallon of water is roughly 3-4 inches of penetration on ballistics gel, see the links I have posted for actual ballistic gel test at 10 feet.

I suggest looking at this http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm and rethinking your argument. Yes a 12 gauge is much more powerful than a judge, however the penetration into water bottles is the same. Meaning 1 bottle = xinches, 2 bottles = xinches.

**Sireen**

we know from personal home protection experience that a bird shot will NOT kill an intruder, but it will eff him up pretty good.

Guy STILL can talk right!

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 115374 08-18-2012 08:23 PM

Skeletor Wrote:

Also a .22 short is a terrible get off me gun, if you are being pinned and you have one shot you want to stop the threat now. There have been people shot by 5.56 nato and not reported feeling it till hours after the event. However any gun is better than no gun. Use what you can use effectively. I just wouldn't want to be in a fight for my life, and have to rely on getting a head shot with a .22 pistol.

you're an idiot