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Do you support the Buffet rule?
LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 88087
04-16-2012 04:24 PM

 



Post: #61
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
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LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 01:10 PM)
JF Priest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:57 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:13 PM)
Is there any proof you have that shows the buffet rule doesn't affect the ultra rich? Or are we just shooting down an Obama policy again cos some republican scum is lying about it?

see post 33

What post 33?
And do you know more about what is stated in the law except that there is still some room left for people to use some loopholes (like foundations as is stated). Is it really closing a lot of loopholes, just not all?
Are we better of making this first step or are we better of stopping the law? What is the benefit of stopping the law?

Maybe this will help you...

The highest-earning U.S. households have ways to escape President Barack Obama’s Buffett rule with tax-planning techniques that would limit their liability and undermine the proposal’s purpose.

Those affected taxpayers -- the fewer than 0.5 percent of Americans with annual incomes exceeding $1 million and tax rates of less than 30 percent -- could take advantage of tax-free investments such as municipal bonds to escape the Buffett rule’s bite. They also could time asset sales for maximum tax benefits, engage in transactions that don’t result in taxable income and make charitable contributions that yield deductions.

The U.S. taxes capital gains only when assets are sold, letting taxpayers realize gains when they choose, and they sometimes make those decisions based on tax rates. This feature of the tax code has caused spikes in capital gains realizations -- most notably after the 1986 overhaul of the tax code before an increase in the capital gains rate took effect.

‘Delay Selling’
“The tax on capital gains is only collected when you sell your asset,” said Jon Bakija, an economics professor at Williams College in Massachusetts. “So one way to respond to that would be delay selling your assets.”

One of the clearest examples of this phenomenon is Buffett, whose estimated $44.8 billion fortune as of yesterday places him third on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index of the world’s richest people. The value of Buffett’s stock in Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK/A) (A) appreciates with gains in the company’s stock price. He doesn’t pay taxes on the higher value of his assets unless he sells them.

Taxpayers can avoid the capital gains tax entirely by donating assets with low cost basis to charity. Another way to escape the tax is to keep such assets until one dies, when they would be passed onto heirs with a cost basis of their value at death. For the very wealthiest, the estate tax would capture some of those gains.

Beyond timing changes, taxpayers can rearrange their portfolios to earn income in forms that don’t show up as part of adjusted gross income. For example, interest on municipal bonds and employer-provided health insurance are both tax free, and would become more attractive.

Taxpayers who want to avoid selling appreciated assets and still enjoy their economic benefits can take out margin loans against the value, Miller said.

Also, the Buffett rule proposal allows deductions for charitable contributions, so taxpayers could accelerate future donations, especially if they think Congress might repeal the Buffett rule or otherwise lower taxes in the future.

Miller said taxpayers anticipating capital gains could move to a low-tax state. Because the Buffett rule would effectively deny the benefits of the state and local tax deduction, it would create a greater-than-usual incentive to move to a state such as Florida with no income tax.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04...ax-rate#p2

But the broader point is, the White House and Buffett are misleading Americans in this debate.

They are in favor of increasing income taxes on the wealthy that Buffett himself does not pay because Buffett has structured his tax bill to pay at around the same lower rate as the $50,000-$75,000 crowd pays, an average 15%. Buffett has structured his federal tax bill to drop his effective tax rate down lower than his secretary’s rate.

In other words, the President’s "Buffett Rule" would not tax the vast majority of Buffett’s own sheltered income, including either his unrealized capital gains, which are currently taxed at 0%, or charitable contributions, which are tax deductible.

Buffett also reportedly takes out loans taken out against his assets, and lowers his tax bill further by deducting that interest on his returns. And he makes generous charitable contributions, which he can also deduct on his tax returns.

Indeed, Buffett’s second of three contractual conditions for his ongoing pledge to the Gates Foundation reads: "The foundation must continue to satisfy the legal requirements qualifying Warren's gift as charitable, exempt from gift or other taxes."

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/Pag...-gift.aspx
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 61788
04-16-2012 05:41 PM

 



Post: #62
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2012 11:31 PM)
If so can I ask why? First before you answer please consider the Buffet rule will not really affect the ultra wealthy like Buffet. It is really smoke and mirror's the ultra wealthy hide their income in Tax Exempt [b]Charitable Foundations[/b], in fact Buffet keep's his Billion's in Bill Gates Foundation.

Therefore why would anyone support the Buffet rule? Even if you are for higher taxes on the ultra wealthy wouldn't you be demanding Obama close the tax loopholes? If those loopholes were closed the mega rich would be paying a lot more money then they would under the Buffet rule.

In reality the Buffet rule helps the mega wealthy cut down on competition since they have had a long time to develop their wealth smoke and mirror's that's what the Buffet rule really is.

Give money to The Cancer Society- tax write off. Start your own foundation- tax write off. Buy a poor guy a car, you get nothing but a thank you from the poor guy (which is cool).
Time to:

EAT THE RICH!


We can't afford them anymore.
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WalkersEverywhere
Mortem comoedia ad ambulatories
User ID: 90682
04-16-2012 06:11 PM

Posts: 2,143



Post: #63
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
Old Whatshisname  Wrote: (04-16-2012 01:49 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2012 11:31 PM)
If so can I ask why? First before you answer please consider the Buffet rule will not really affect the ultra wealthy like Buffet. It is really smoke and mirror's the ultra wealthy hide their income in Tax Exempt Charitable Foundations, in fact Buffet keep's his Billion's in Bill Gates Foundation.

Therefore why would anyone support the Buffet rule? Even if you are for higher taxes on the ultra wealthy wouldn't you be demanding Obama close the tax loopholes? If those loopholes were closed the mega rich would be paying a lot more money then they would under the Buffet rule.

In reality the Buffet rule helps the mega wealthy cut down on competition since they have had a long time to develop their wealth smoke and mirror's that's what the Buffet rule really is.

I am againsst all taxes; I consider them simply theft.

But if we must have some sort of minimal tax to fund things that the individuals citizen needs but can't afrord (like, say, national defense), then each person should pay an amount equal to what he gets from the government in goods and services.

If you assume that all Americns benefit equally from those big ticket items, then all Americans should pay the same. If that conrucopia of goods and services costs $3,500, then you and I and Buffet should pay $3,500 each.

Charging a person more for the same goods and services because he has more money to spend doesn't make sense, any more than charging you an extra ten bucks a gallon for gas or an extra dollar for a loaf of bread because you have a bigger paycheck than I.
hellyeah1

Cmicsfee
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Blueacres nsi
lop guest
User ID: 76461
04-16-2012 06:11 PM

 



Post: #64
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:48 AM)
Geogal  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:43 AM)
Sunny  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:31 AM)
This is the simplest and fairest way to tax. No income tax. Sales tax only. Tax percentage goes up with amount of purchase, "luxury items" will be taxed the highest.

No sales tax to resold goods of any kinds--tax only ONCE!S977
basic foods shouldn't be taxed, but ANY luxury should be.

Also, if things like weed were sold and taxed properly... it would be safer (no lacing) and it would make the states revenue and it's a great oxygen producer.

Jhikpghf

Definitely

Time to end our unwinnable drug war

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/time-t...-drug-war/

""US President Barack Obama has said that legalising drugs is not the answer to the problems caused by the trafficking of illegal narcotics in the Americas.
Mr Obama told a gathering of leading executives in Colombia ahead of the Summit of the Americas that legalisation could worsen the problem.President Obama said the answer to the increasing power of drug cartels in the hemisphere was to encourage societies with strong economics, rule of law, and a sound law enforcement infrastructure.""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17716926

Hiding3
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 88087
04-16-2012 06:17 PM

 



Post: #65
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
Blueacres nsi  Wrote: (04-16-2012 06:11 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:48 AM)
Geogal  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:43 AM)
basic foods shouldn't be taxed, but ANY luxury should be.

Also, if things like weed were sold and taxed properly... it would be safer (no lacing) and it would make the states revenue and it's a great oxygen producer.

Jhikpghf

Definitely

Time to end our unwinnable drug war

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/time-t...-drug-war/

""US President Barack Obama has said that legalising drugs is not the answer to the problems caused by the trafficking of illegal narcotics in the Americas.
Mr Obama told a gathering of leading executives in Colombia ahead of the Summit of the Americas that legalisation could worsen the problem.President Obama said the answer to the increasing power of drug cartels in the hemisphere was to encourage societies with strong economics, rule of law, and a sound law enforcement infrastructure.""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17716926

Hiding3

Obama’s Disingenuous War on Drugs

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...drugs.html
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Blueacres nsi
lop guest
User ID: 76461
04-16-2012 06:18 PM

 



Post: #66
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
BJ  Wrote: (04-16-2012 11:32 AM)
So...we are debating over who will be the next president, which is diverting our attention from the real problem...those who sit in power in the "hallowed halls of Congress". If we don't take this seriously, NOTHING WILL CHANGE. The current crop can be bribed because money talks to power, and at the expense of all the principles this nation was founded upon.

""The American Nazi Party has registered its first lobbyist in Washington DC.
John Bowles, 55, told US media he wanted to address political rights and ballot access and he expected congressmen would accept meetings.
Lobbying was something the party would "try out for the first time and see if it flies," Mr Bowles told ABC News. He registered as a lobbyist this week.
""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17710570

doomed
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 88087
04-16-2012 07:12 PM

 



Post: #67
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 04:00 PM)
It seems to me that they'll do anything they can to keep from reducing the size of government.
So I say no new taxes on anyone until they've done what's right and drastically reduced the size of the federal government.
It needs to operate within it's declining income levels just like the rest of us.

We need a national conversation about the role of government. It's all spelled out in the constitution but nobody pays any attention to that anymore.

We can no longer afford to be an empire and as they destroy the currency it's going to take more and more of it just to maintain.

NO NEW TAXES on ANYONE!

I agree with you the point of my post however was that people are being misled on the buffet rule. The mega wealthy like buffet buy our politicians and this rule is nothing more then a smokescreen since he will not pay more nor will the other Elites.
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Dinsdale Piranha
Center Winger
User ID: 54297
04-16-2012 07:44 PM

Posts: 2,633



Post: #68
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
chuckle
(This post was last modified: 04-16-2012 07:47 PM by Dinsdale Piranha.) Quote this message in a reply
cassandra1010
lop guest
User ID: 77065
04-16-2012 07:55 PM

 



Post: #69
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
An example of how Arrogance and Corruption fills the world.

http://www.citizensenergy.com/main/Home.html
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cassandra1010
lop guest
User ID: 77065
04-16-2012 08:16 PM

 



Post: #70
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
cassandra1010  Wrote: (04-16-2012 07:55 PM)
An example of how Arrogance and Corruption fills the world.

http://www.citizensenergy.com/main/Home.html

The classical legends of the Trojan War developed continuously throughout Greek and Latin literature. In Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, the earliest literary evidence available, the chief stories have already taken shape, and individual themes were elaborated later, especially in Greek drama. The story of the Trojan origin, through Aeneas, of Rome helped to inspire Roman interest; book ii of Virgil's Aeneid contains the best-known account of the sack of Troy. Finally there are the pseudo-chronicles that go under the names of Dictys Cretensis and Dares Phrygius.

The Trojan War fought between the Greeks and Troy originated in the following manner. King Priam of Troy was wealthy and powerful; by his wife Hecuba and by concubines he had 50 sons and 12 daughters. But his son Paris was invited to judge which of the goddesses Aphrodite, Hera, and Athena was entitled to receive the golden apple marked by the goddess Eris (Discord) "for the most beautiful." Aphrodite promised Paris the most beautiful woman in the world: he therefore awarded her the apple and went to Greece, where he won the love of, and eloped with, Helen, wife of Menelaus, the king of Sparta.

To recover Helen, the Greeks launched a great expedition under the overall command of Menelaus' brother, Agamemnon, king of Argos or Mycenae. The Trojans refused to return Helen. The Greeks sacked small towns in or near the Troad, but Troy, assisted by allies from Asia Minor and Thrace, withstood a Greek siege for 10 years. The gods also took sides, notably Hera, Athena, and Poseidon for the Greeks, and Aphrodite (who had a son, Aeneas, by the Trojan Anchises, grandson of Assaracus), Apollo, and Ares for the Trojans. The Iliad, which is set in the 10th year of the war, tells of the quarrel between Agamemnon and Achilles, who was the finest Greek warrior, and the consequent deaths in battle of (among others) Achilles' friend Patroclus and Priam's eldest son, Hector.

After Hector's death the Trojans were joined by two exotic allies, Penthesilea, queen of the Amazons, and Memnon, king of the Ethiopians and son of the dawn-goddess Eos. Achilles killed both of these, but Paris then managed to kill Achilles with an arrow. Before they could take Troy, the Greeks had to steal from the citadel the wooden image of Pallas Athena (the Palladium) and fetch the arrows of Heracles and the sick archer Philoctetes from Lemnos and Achilles' son Neoptolemus (Pyrrhus) from Skyros; Odysseus and Diomedes achieved all these. Finally, with Athena's help, Epeius built a huge wooden horse. Several Greek warriors hid inside it; the rest of the Greek army sailed away to Tenedos, a nearby island, pretending to abandon the siege. Despite the warnings of Priam's daughter Cassandra, the Trojans were persuaded by Sinon, a Greek who feigned desertion, to take the horse inside the walls of Troy as an offering to Athena; the priest Laocoon, who tried to have the horse destroyed, was killed by sea serpents. At night the Greek fleet returned, and the Greeks from the horse opened the gates of Troy. In the total sack that followed, Priam and his remaining sons were slaughtered; the Trojan women passed into slavery in various cities of Greece. The adventurous homeward voyages of the Greek leaders were told in two epics, the Returns (Nostoi; lost) and Homer's Odyssey.

The few Trojan survivors included Aeneas, whose descendants continued to rule the Trojans; later tradition took Aeneas' Trojans to Italy as the ancestors of the Romans.


http://history-world.org/troy.htm

Aenas = Kennedy
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Bob
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User ID: 88493
04-16-2012 08:46 PM

Posts: 984



Post: #71
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
JF Priest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:19 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:07 AM)
JF Priest  Wrote: (04-15-2012 11:37 PM)
Good Post.. There is a lot of Smoke and Mirrors that the rich use to hide their income.. Remember GE paid no Income tax...Since the Buffet rule was brought to show how unfair the tax code is (Remember the income tax goes for nothing more than the Interest on the Federal Debt)..And (the income tax was started as a20e percent tax on the richest one percent) why not just go to a consumption tax?? When you spend is when you get taxed.. Spend more more tax..(You would get your entire paycheck each week.. No taxes taken off)

Thanks JF I just noticed that the MSM never really points out the truth. I think if people are going to come to the defense of something they should understand what is they are defending. If Warren Bailed Out Buffet were really interested in paying more he could either write a check to the treasury or stop hiding his own massive wealth and pay the 35% on it. Now that would be a nice hefty chunk!

The people who are in the process of achieving wealth right now, wealth that could create new jobs will be the loser's under obama's buffet rule. This would only serve to further enrich the richest 1% who btw

Yup, under Bush, the 1% captured a disproportionate share of the income gains from the Bush boom of 2002-2007. They got 65 cents of every dollar created in that boom, up 20 cents from when Clinton was President. Under Obama, the 1% got 93 cents of every dollar created in that boom. That's not only more than under Bush, up 28 cents. In the transition from Bush to Obama, inequality got worse, faster, than under the transition from Clinton to Bush. Obama accelerated the growth of inequality.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/8533-grow...-than-bush

If anything tell obama your on to him and tell them to close the loopholes!
Jhikpghf.. Warren gives himself a salary of around 100 Thousand..Most of it Dividends from previous earnings..Then the rest is sheltered most in off shore accounts.. Time to get rid of the IRS and Simplify the tax code..

which is how Romney handles his fortune also. Things will never change. There will only be those few privy to the loop holes that are buried deep in the tax laws and there will always be loop holes, regardless of any change.
(This post was last modified: 04-16-2012 08:46 PM by Bob.) Quote this message in a reply
LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 88087
04-16-2012 08:59 PM

 



Post: #72
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
Malpractice  Wrote: (04-16-2012 08:46 PM)
JF Priest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:19 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-16-2012 12:07 AM)
Thanks JF I just noticed that the MSM never really points out the truth. I think if people are going to come to the defense of something they should understand what is they are defending. If Warren Bailed Out Buffet were really interested in paying more he could either write a check to the treasury or stop hiding his own massive wealth and pay the 35% on it. Now that would be a nice hefty chunk!

The people who are in the process of achieving wealth right now, wealth that could create new jobs will be the loser's under obama's buffet rule. This would only serve to further enrich the richest 1% who btw

Yup, under Bush, the 1% captured a disproportionate share of the income gains from the Bush boom of 2002-2007. They got 65 cents of every dollar created in that boom, up 20 cents from when Clinton was President. Under Obama, the 1% got 93 cents of every dollar created in that boom. That's not only more than under Bush, up 28 cents. In the transition from Bush to Obama, inequality got worse, faster, than under the transition from Clinton to Bush. Obama accelerated the growth of inequality.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/8533-grow...-than-bush

If anything tell obama your on to him and tell them to close the loopholes!
Jhikpghf.. Warren gives himself a salary of around 100 Thousand..Most of it Dividends from previous earnings..Then the rest is sheltered most in off shore accounts.. Time to get rid of the IRS and Simplify the tax code..

which is how Romney handles his fortune also. Things will never change. There will only be those few privy to the loop holes that are buried deep in the tax laws and there will always be loop holes, regardless of any change.

If you don't like Romney's loophole's then you won't like the buffet rule because it still allows them. Change can't come with an attitude of there is nothing you can do about it there is you can call the bluff and write and call and tell them you are on to them!
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BJ
lop guest
User ID: 90703
04-16-2012 09:17 PM

 



Post: #73
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
A reminder here, a warning, if you will:

Thomas Jefferson:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

And where will their homes be? Owned by the banks, along with everything else!

So...the only way to take us down was through the back door. The traitors enacted the Federal Reserve Act, which begot the IRS (their collection agency), and we are losing now what wasn't lost to the banks during the Great Depression. If this is allowed to continue, without a fight, our children will be in chains, and curse us in our graves.
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Michael Alan Keith
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User ID: 84432
04-16-2012 09:18 PM

Posts: 4,759



Post: #74
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
The Buffett rule is a good start. Many of the richest will pay more taxes. None will pay less from this.

These tax haven trusts are already exempt. Except for when you take money out of them. That then becomes income.


Buffett Rule + Trust Taxes = Much Better
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 88786
04-16-2012 09:43 PM

 



Post: #75
RE: Do you support the Buffet rule?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2012 11:40 PM)
Do I get to eat the rich at this buffet?


Patience. Soon. Real soon.
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