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**Devout Agnostic** · (This post was last modified: 08-19-2012 08:22 PM by Devout Agnostic.)

It's like Jesus' birthday. Ask any but the most hardcore christian if the bible forbids it, and they will tell you on no uncertain terms that it does. Ask them to find where, and they say they'll get back to you. You'll be waiting awhile.

There is no scripture or group of scriptures that forbid a pregnant women to terminate her pregnancy. The proof is twofold:

- Google 'biblical argument against abortion' and you will find many, many christian websites like this one, with walls of vague scriptural references to pregnancy and life, and nowhere among them will you find one expressing any particular opinion on voluntary abortion. If YHVH has one, he keeps it to himself, and it is important to note that abortificants were certainly known in Jewish culture during biblical times, as they have been in most human cultures since prehistory.

- In Judaism, abortion is not forbidden and not considered murder. Precise opinions and attitudes vary between denominations, but they all agree on these points: "Jewish law sees the fetus during the first forty days of gestation as "simply water" and during the rest of gestation "like the thigh of its mother." It does not become a full human being [according to Jewish law] until birth." Rabbi Elliot Dorff, conservative

**Aqua**

Yet the baby is a separate physical entity that abortion clinics seek out to destroy/kill/murder far past the first 40 days, and into the third trimester.

"Thou shalt not Kill" was originally Thou Shalt not MURDER...and the definition of 'murder' is killing someone who is unarmed and has no intention to harm.

sounds like abortion fits right into that category.

**GUANO**

I think on some level abortion = Molech. Back in the day, small nations like Philistia had population growth problems. They couldn't care for and feed all the kids that were being born... So they sacrificed them. Is this not the same concept? They were just a bit more ritualistic about it back then...

**Devout Agnostic**

Aqua Wrote:

Yet the baby is a separate physical entity that abortion clinics seek out to destroy/kill/murder far past the first 40 days, and into the third trimester.

"Thou shalt not Kill" was originally Thou Shalt not MURDER...and the definition of 'murder' is killing someone who is unarmed and has no intention to harm.

sounds like abortion fits right into that category.

Not according to Jewish law. Those are the guys who wrote the bible, BTW, and still follow all of its laws religiously.

"Abortions are thought of as ending life in potential, but not murder, as some in the media would lead us to believe." Rabbi Sanford Shudnow, orthodox

**Devout Agnostic** · (This post was last modified: 08-19-2012 08:33 PM by Devout Agnostic.)

GUANO Wrote:

I think on some level abortion = Molech. Back in the day, small nations like Philistia had population growth problems. They couldn't care for and feed all the kids that were being born... So they sacrificed them. Is this not the same concept? They were just a bit more ritualistic about it back then...

I don't have a problem with this perspective at all. I think it might be the case. But abortion, as a personal choice or cultural practice, is not forbidden by the bible.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 115603 08-19-2012 08:35 PM

DId the Jews of his time have abortion clinics?

Does the Bible advocate or rule against space travel?

**HeidiLore**

This will not end well. There are several subjects that people will not bend on, and abortion is one of them.

Keep it clean. Every time there is one of these threads an argument occurs.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 37860 08-19-2012 08:36 PM

Thou shalt not kill.

**Strategos**

That is because the Bible didn't found the Church, the Church selected the writings to be used by the Church.

And that is why the Bible is not a textbook that addresses everything.

So by Church tradition we know that abortion is forbidden because that is what the Apostles taught, and they were taught by Jesus.

**Devout Agnostic** · (This post was last modified: 08-19-2012 08:41 PM by Devout Agnostic.)

LoP Guest Wrote:

DId the Jews of his time have abortion clinics?

Does the Bible advocate or rule against space travel?

Did the Jews of the time possess abortifacients? Numbers 5:11-31

Quote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortifacient#History

In the Bible, an ordeal is prescribed for a woman suspected of adultery in which she drinks "water of bitterness," which is supposed to result, if she is guilty, in the abortion or miscarriage of a pregnancy she may be carrying.

**Devout Agnostic**

HeidiLore Wrote:

This will not end well. There are several subjects that people will not bend on, and abortion is one of them.

Keep it clean. Every time there is one of these threads an argument occurs.

I'm not telling anybody what to believe about abortion. I'm simply stating facts.

**Devout Agnostic**

Strategos Wrote:

So by Church tradition we know that abortion is forbidden because that is what the Apostles taught, and they were taught by Jesus.

So, this is a word-of-mouth/oral tradition argument?

**HeidiLore**

Devout Agnostic Wrote:

I'm not telling anybody what to believe about abortion. I'm simply stating facts.

And you should know that in this situation, facts are very subjective. I'm merely telling everyone to keep cool, because inevitably someone will start an argument with name-calling and such. When it comes to abortion, decorum is eliminated, unfortunately.

**Strategos**

Devout Agnostic Wrote:

Strategos Wrote:
So by Church tradition we know that abortion is forbidden because that is what the Apostles taught, and they were taught by Jesus.

So, this is a word-of-mouth/oral tradition argument?

Yes, but not in the way you are saying. The Protestant understanding of Scripture standing by itself is an idea borrowed from Rabbinical Judaism (Kabbalah and Gematria) and Islam. It is not the historical understanding of the Church at any point in time.

By Tradition we know which books were accepted into the New Testament and which books were to be excluded.

The early Orthodox Church chose the books.

The protestants followed their example, but dumped their tradition, now there are thousands of different Protestant cults that use the same Bible but have vastly different interpretations.

**Devout Agnostic**

Strategos Wrote:

Devout Agnostic Wrote:
Strategos Wrote:
So by Church tradition we know that abortion is forbidden because that is what the Apostles taught, and they were taught by Jesus.

So, this is a word-of-mouth/oral tradition argument?

Yes, but not in the way you are saying. The Protestant understanding of Scripture standing by itself is an idea borrowed from Rabbinical Judaism (Kabbalah and Gematria) and Islam. It is not the historical understanding of the Church at any point in time.

By Tradition we know which books were accepted into the New Testament and which books were to be excluded.

The early Orthodox Church chose the books.

The protestants followed their example, but dumped their tradition, now there are thousands of different Protestant cults that use the same Bible but have vastly different interpretations.

I'm totally open to apocryphal citations, but those won't help the KJV crew.