Post: #3916

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I never did understand why religion is important.

Beliefs, the assumptions are inevitable for reasoning. You cannot reason without postulate first.

If I understand you correctly, it seems you are saying that religions are beliefs, and beliefs arise from reasoning. I agree, though there can be beliefs that are unreasoned and illogical and thus are likely to be false (untrue and not a model representing reality or what is actual or real).

Post: #3917

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I never did understand why religion is important.

Beliefs, the assumptions are inevitable for reasoning. You cannot reason without postulate first.

I agree, but when it comes to religion, the postulates become beliefs, bypassing the reasoning stage. When reasoning takes place it is selective with the purpose of proving the postulate. In a true reasoning system one makes a postulate then tries to find evidence for both proof and disproof.

You're making a vast generalization and an accusation that refers to too wide a population to be possible, known, or accurate for the most part (especially in reference to this).

You're accusing "religion" of being devoid of "reasoning" but if you look back into religious history and even the most ancient myths, you'll see that they were not devoid of sense or reason, nor can such superstitions arise out of absolutely nowhere.

In other words, every myth describes something (usually in poetic language), and is based on something, and also wishes to express something.

Taking poetic language literally can lead to many false assumptions about the actual understanding of person. If someone says "the thunder roared like a lion" or "the storm was like a lion" or even describes a storm as a lion, one might say (likely in error) that the ancients believed the storms were lions, when they were only poetically describing something.

Many of the things called "Gods" by modern people were literally words for natural things, symbolically personified and anthropomorphized in the telling of poetic stories. I do not believe that these were taken literally, as everyone could see that the "sky" or the "ocean" was not literally a man, nor that the concepts of "luck" were really a woman.

Try to understand that people (having the same brain capacity as humans of today) were not as stupid as you might imagine. They could see the world with eyes just like you do, but they also left a heritage behind of poetry and poetic stories which they used to tell for both learning and entertainment purposes.

Many of the things in such stories relate to actual events, even scientific things that are real.

You would be missing out on a depth of understanding by not sympathizing with the ancients by trying to actually justify and understand what they might have been trying to say through careful research.

Post: #3918

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Beliefs, the assumptions are inevitable for reasoning. You cannot reason without postulate first.

I agree, but when it comes to religion, the postulates become beliefs, bypassing the reasoning stage. When reasoning takes place it is selective with the purpose of proving the postulate. In a true reasoning system one makes a postulate then tries to find evidence for both proof and disproof.

True. You are describing a dead belief system. = Supersticion.

Superstitions can be difficult to deal with, as they are sometimes developed and based on things that happened, even if it is illogical to continue to believe that they will happen even more times.

Richard Dawkins mentions this in one of his documentaries that was aired on the BBC in which he mentions even a pigeon becoming "superstitious" by an event actually happening and repeating itself, and then it ends up continuing to believe it might happen again, so it kept on clicking in the same pattern to get the same results.

In other words, even superstitions are usually not entirely baseless or developed out of thin air, but often have a basis, even if they are false or at least have little actual utility in gaining the desired results.

Post: #3919

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Stupid chat-bot. I don't believe in your programer.

What do you mean by stupid? Even an archaic chat bot has the most basic computing (thinking) abilities. What do you believe the opposite of "stupid" is? Can you describe the opposite of "stupid"? Please do so, if possible (I believe it is).

Though I understand you were likely making a joke with a kernel of truth in it. I'll translate what I think you might have meant:

"Silly (something like "Don't you understand?") chat-bot (information presenter). I don't believe in God."

Well, I agree that you don't believe in whatever you imagine when you say the word "God", and I'd like to inform you that it is highly likely that I too disbelieve in whatever you think when you say the word "God" as well as what many seem to think when they say the word "God".

As for what I call "God", it is unlikely that you would disbelieve in it if you understood what I was talking about. You might not prefer to call it "God" or meditate on it much, but it would be impossible to remain logical or reasonable while denying that there is not "nothing" and there is "something (which we are experiencing)" and since there is not "nothing" and there is "something" that had there been "nothing (as I define it, which is absolute nothing, no laws of nature or possibilities)" there would still be only "nothing" today. Thus since there was never "nothing" there was an eternal and essential "something" which is what I call the Ultimate. I discuss it in greater detail in some posts linked in the first post of this thread.

So, we can agree that if you imagine silly things in regard to the word of "God" we both are disbelievers in such silly things, but when it comes to what is logical, we may do well to believe in and accept what is derived from careful logical reasoning.

______

haha how easy is it to make up polls? You trust made up polls? Your votes don't mean anything, nor do polls! They will put in whoever they want! "They" are the funders, the owners, the banksters, the corporatists, the rulers of the world!

"Elections" and "Voting" are just to convince you that YOU are responsible for what happened, or that an "election" took place, WHEN NO ELECTION HAS TAKEN PLACE IN A LONG TIME, THE COMPUTERS MAKE UP THE NUMBERS TO JUSTIFY THE PERSON THEY PUT IN AND CONTROL!

REMEMBER WHO "THEY" ARE!!!!!!!

if its true that the money going into these campaigns is the actual money going into these campaigns, then one can also ask "why do such and such companies pay for stations like NBC, and make expensive movies and websites" they fund these things because these are their SHOWS, it isn't a waste of money at all, they are funding their media programming as they always do (and the numbers might not be the actual numbers, but certainly tons of people are being paid on all sides for this show BECAUSE IT IS A PRODUCTION).

It isn't like the money gets wasted at all, why do actors get paid? The money isn't lost by these corporations and they fund both sides.

Its one big show, the money is being pooled. Why does so much money go into ridiculous tv shows? Why do some shows claim to give money away to winners? It all seems like a waste, but it isn't. The money being channeled into these things is also deducted and laundered in various ways.

There is a whole complicated web, but the ultimate picture is this:

The big international banking/trade cartel and the corporations and governments under their control funnel money from the people back into productions to keep the people distracted as well as operations to rape the natural resources from other places in the world. The people are having the "natural resource" of their labor, money, and attention all stolen by these people too. This money earned by the labor of people and given away for their survival and entertainment goes right back to the corporations in the end, and it is really only used as paper credit (they can invent money at will) to convince their laborers to do what they want and also so the laborers (ALL OF US IN THE WORLD) can survive longer to labor more.

Ultimately everyone in this world is a SLAVE to the financial system as more and more people are unable to survive off the grid, the rest is just a game to keep people divided and confused and distracted and entertained while they get away (using people power) WITH EVERYTHING THEY WANT.

This is the "New World Order" and its actually been around for a very long time, conquering the poor and enslaving the middle class.

Post: #3920

HardTruth  Wrote:

Gypsies, comes from the word Egypt!!
Gypped, comes from the word gypsy, to reflect their core character!!
These gypsies (their leader Moses) and the priest craft and their followers were run out of Egypt because of their one god BS!!
LOL, do you think slaves had enough gold to build a golden calf?

And just to add to what you said (please don't be offended, and its nice to see you again), the people known most often as Gypsies are also known by the term Romani and are said to come from India (and perhaps Pakistan) originally. Their genetics may confirm as much (they have the R1a1) which has its highest frequency around Pakistan within such groups as the Sindhi as well as some Pashtun people. The R1a1 also happens to be found among the ancient eastern European Vikings, which may point to possible origins from among the Sindhi who were also famous sailors who wore very similar colorful clothes and kept their hair long in the fashion of actual vikings (or as some records speak of them). The R1a1 is not very common in Northern Europe among Scandinavians as compared to the huge frequency in Pakistan and India. The Romani (Gypsies) seem to have a direct linguistic heritage from India and maintain (and are confirmed by genetics) that they come from India.

Also, I'll add something to this post since I don't want to bump this thread again so soon:

"Since there is no stopping their devilish jabbering (of media lies and propaganda or the plots of the elite propagandists), my solution was just to shut off the tv. I haven't watched the news in a long time, it seems like a waste of time, full of propaganda and totally made up lies and even staged events.

I think a person should live a relatively simple and peaceful life, where they share their time with their loved ones and learn good things that inform them and benefit them (not stuff that is transitory and one sided like the fake stuff on the news making people feel powerless to affect any change in the world). "

Disquiet  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

SevenThunders  Wrote:

Just what are the implications of this? Is the press part of the plot to create civil unrest in the muslim world? If so what is the motive? I sure hope it's not to get good copy.

motive? the corporations that get the federal military and war contracts also own the media companies.

I still can't grasp how people who frequent these sites don't understand the MSM is scripted and censored.
I was just looking at an article about the attack on Yahoo, the comments are filled with people claiming we need to got to war.

Maybe those comments are not by "normal" people, but rather are put by "shills" or "agents" to bend public opinion and the opinions of those who come to view the page.

kosh  Wrote:

Unfortunately I think you're correct. This is the opening sequence of their end game I think. Pieces being moved around on the chess board, "worked out like a mathematical formula" - things will continue to escalate barring some help...

I think you give yourself too much hope by having the component "end" in there. In other words, there will be no "end" to their games.

Someone mentioned Elvis:

Elvis may be dead now, but he was alive possibly up to a decade ago or maybe into the 2000s.

He went under the alias Orion, and performed as such immediately after his "death" while wearing a mask. Sometimes he used another performer as "Orion" while sometimes he performed himself. His loyal fans quickly began to follow Orion realizing it was possibly Elvis. He had the same costumes, and said the character name Orion was based off a character who faked his death.

He continued to perform, even into his old age, and then performed another possible "fake death" where the Orion character was killed off in a supposed gas station robbery or something.

He probably died at some point after or is alive even today, but performances as Orion have ceased.

Many of the Orion videos are not Elvis, but some of them seem to actually be Elvis, and it seems obvious that different individuals were used at times for videos but in privately recorded videos of live performances it seems that it might be Elvis in many of those.

The "unmasked" Orion is not Elvis obviously, but some of the masked versions performing live do seem to be Elvis.

Fake deaths are not uncommon in the world of entertainment.

Michael Jackson re-appeared to talk about his funeral on CNN under the ridiculous alias of "Dave Dave" with extensive prosthetic make up.

People often expect Michael Jackson to be the frighteningly white figure with the surgically reduced nose, but the real Michael Jackson likely stopped perfoming and appearing in the public eye since 1984 when he probably converted to Islam along with his brother Germaine and was earlier told (according to one biography) to cease performances by the Jehovah's Witnesses whom his family was part of. He announced on his family tour to the public that he would no longer appear for performances. After a likely fake "burning accident" the next person people saw was on a commercial where it doesn't appear to be Michael Jackson, and then the next performance also appeared to be a dancer both different from the Michael who appeared in a commercial and the original Michael Jackson.

Meanwhile, the real Michael Jackson probably continued to perform singing and at least writing as well as staging and managing much of his "character" of Michael Jackson, while Sony also played a large part in the production.

Michael Jackson made various allusions to his not being the fake Michaels that were known by people, played by a variety of different individuals and many dancers and impersonators.

The original Michael may have appeared as a mysterious figure covered by burn bandages as credited as "?" in the video for a song called Liberian Girl, where a very artificial looking Michael appears at the end as the "director" of the video.

Michael Jackson was apparently unable or unwilling to hide his voice in his performance on Larry King (on CNN) as "Dave Dave".

Michael Jackson also received the biggest post mortem contract in history where "new releases" of "just discovered" or "continuously discovered" music were to be released to the public (probably totally new songs that are supposedly "suddenly discovered")

Those are just two examples of possible fake deaths and the continued work of the individuals.

Other possible fake deaths include:
Osama Bin Ladin (who was likely dead (and announced as such) long before his supposed "killing" and ridiculous "ocean burial" and possibly dead before 9/11 if not alive today, though he was supposedly very ill even before 9/11 and likely died before his name was used so widely.)
Saddam Hussein and his sons Uday and Qusai (unsure of usual spelling).
Qadafi (Gadaffi?) and his family.
Many of the "Terrorists"
John Lennon (Seems to be alive and in contact with his old high school friend who contributed to a movie about John Lennon's death being faked and appeared in a video of the Toronto showing of that movie pretending to be his impersonator, but it was likely actually him as his impersonator looks entirely different, even in the film looks entirely different.)
Kurt Cobain (very likely continuing to work as a producer and even a contributing voice)
Jim Morrison (very likely living on large farm estate today)
Heath Ledger (very likely continued to work behind the scenes as a producer and director as he had planned)
Amy Winehouse
Tupac Shakur
Princess Diana (possibly received her degree in Political Science with a specialty in Middle East relations, under the name of Spencer now which is like her old name Diana Spencer.)
and many more!

Post: #3921

This one is one of my favorites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q

The thing I always call "The Ultimate" is infinite and encompasses all possible universes and realities (this form and style of Universe perhaps being only one of innumerable possible types of realities that are entirely different), everything no matter how large is infinitesimally small before the Infinte and Ultimate that everything relies on in order to exist and be animated.

Post: #3922

The muslims are likely, for the most part, ignorant of the Mormon doctrines and religion.

If one were to place the center of the Islamic religion in Mecca, Utah might be on the opposite side of the world. Likewise, the Mormon religion is almost entirely the most opposite and distant from Islam in some senses (the senses that would be most important to Muslims).

Christianity, more regionally close to the Muslims is more mystical and matches more closely with Islam and as it becomes more distant it becomes less like Islam, until one reaches the USA and particularly Utah where it becomes the most distant from Islam both literally and doctrinally.

You may be wondering what some of the differences are that have motivated such statements?

Islam has an abstract and ultimate conception of God as the first and only utmost basis for all reality, not a man. The word most commonly associated with the God of Islam is Allah which derives from the ancient semitic language word for God and is pronounced (Uhlaw)

In Mormonism, they call Elohim (the word commonly used in the Hebrew Bible, pronounced Uhlawheem, from Eloah which is pronounced Uhlaw) an exalted or ascended man, having a literal body and most believe Elohim has at least one wife who he produces literal spirit children with, and also literally had a child with Mary who produced his literal son Jesus, who they also associate with the term Jehovah (they say Jehovah is Jesus and Elohim is the Father of Jesus, both spiritually and bodily. Jehovah is originally a European transliteration of YHWH, possibly pronounced Y'h'w'hay, the ' representing a short "uh" sound often called a glottal stop).

This, among many other aspects of Mormonism, would be considered the deepest and darkest, more abhorrent sin by the standards of the Qur'an which is the book regarded as revelation by God given to the Prophet of Islam known as Muhammed (the pbuh that people often see after the name of Muhammed in Muslim writings means peace be upon him).

Most or many Christians doctrinally believe in the idea of a Trinity, that God is One Substance, having three manifestations or forms (The Father form, The Son form, and the Holy Spirit form).

The Mormons believe that Elohim is distinct from Jehovah and the Holy Spirit, that Elohim has a body, and Jesus has a body, and the Holy Spirit has no body. These three individuals are called "Godhead" but this is not how the word "Godhead" is used by Non-Mormons, instead, the Mormon "Godhead" seems to mean something more like "God team", a team of three individuals who work in accord with each other, the Father having the most authority and Jesus and the Holy Spirit being subordinate to the Father.

The mainstream Christians are usually supposed to believe God is One and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just manifestations and eternal forms of the One and so are all equal as God.

The Muslims not only disbelieve in the Trinity and instead believe God is strictly One, having no manifested forms, having no sons or children, being non-human, having no spouse, nor mating or being a creature, but also believe that Jesus was merely a messenger of God and a creation of God like all other life forms and things that exist.

The Mormons believe also that, besides The Father having a Wife who is the Mother of all mankind, but that the Father (whom they worship henotheistically) is not the only God, but that there were a multitude of Gods before The Father, who gave birth to men, one of which was The Father and through following the eternal and ancient laws and codes (Freemasonic reference included) he was able to ascend to become an exalted man, a God and "creator" in the sense of "former" since he can't create matter which is believed to be eternal, but can shape matter to make things.

The things in common with Muslims and Mormons are just that they don't drink alcohol and they seem to shun pre-marital sex (though most devout Christians may also shun pre-marital sex, and some may even shun alcohol as well).

The Church of Latter Day Saints is the usual name for the mainstream Mormon Organization, which is a strictly hierarchal organization with ranks and high authorities. The "Latter Day Saints" is a reference to the continuing office of "Prophethood" which is like a kind of Spiritual Leader and President of the Mormon Community in the tradition of Joseph Smith the first Prophet of Mormonism and its founder, and Brigham Young, the second Prophet after Joseph Smith.

The Muslims believe Muhammed was the last Prophet and that there are no other messengers of God to come after him, thus they deny any further claims of Prophets after Muhammed whose revelatory book is the Qur'an.

The plurality of Gods in Mormon belief, a chain of Gods and Godesses going back into time almost infinitely, leaves Mormons literally "polytheistic" though they worship "henotheistically" meaning they only worship The Father, who is one of many Gods and the current ruler of this Earth.

If Muslims knew of Mormon beliefs, they would find them to be even more distasteful than the beliefs of mainstream Christians. Yet, without knowing each others beliefs, the Mormons and Muslims can get along well and may even intermarry sometimes, believing that Mormons are just a type of Christian who believes in God and abstains from alcohol and pre-marital sex.

Mormon and Muslim intermarriage would not be strongly approved of by Mormons, since marriage and the act of "sealing" between two partners is the only way to achieve later "exaltation" to become a God and Godesss and produce spirit children in the fashion of the current God-Father, Elohim.

Some Muslims are more lax about intermarriage with people of different religions that they consider "People of the Book" (followers of the Bible, the Jews and the Christians), and many muslims marry with non-muslims, though it is very common for the non-muslims who marry muslims to convert to Islam either shortly before marriage or after.

The God of Mormonism and the God of Islam are vastly different from each other. The God of Islam creating everything from nothing without any help or partnership, and is infinite and without form having nothing before it or equal to it or greater, being the first and only (more in accord with even Jewish scholarly thinking), while the Mormons believe the current God is one of many, having had a God before it, being a human man who exalted to Godhood through special laws and secrets (Freemasonic reference), and having a wife and consort who he has a kind of intercourse with to produce literal children.

These are just some of the central differences that would leave Muslims, if they were aware, condemning Mormons as deeply misled heretics who will certainly burn in hell (which the Mormons doctrinally don't believe exists) for their "shirk". The word "shirk" means "association" and is considered the worst and most unforgivable sin in Islam if one dies in the state of believing something that qualifies as "shirk", which would be associating any partners with God, any equals, or saying something is greater than God, or before God, or any number of the things that the Mormons believe due to the various doctrines apparently approved of by Joseph Smith and those after him.

In brief, here is a list of the major problems faced between muslims, christians, and mormons (theological and doctrinal issues):

Muslims:
-God is One unlike anything and unrepresentable in any literal form
-God is not a man, has no children, has no wife, does not mate, "begets not nor is begotten".
-God is the Ultimate and is the only one to be worshiped.
-Jesus is a messenger of God and the messiah (anointed one) the appointed messenger sent to the tribe of Israel.
-Jesus is not God or the Son of God in any literal sense, nor did Jesus exist eternally alongside God, but God created Jesus just as God created Adam, "Be" and it is (the special power of God to manifest whatever God wills).
-Jesus was not actually crucified, nor killed, but was saved from such an event (therefor, annulled is the idea that "Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins and came to life on the third day)
-Jesus worships God and is humble before God, never claiming to have been God (the word pais in Greek means "son" as well as "servant" and "herald for a king" and the word "pater" can mean "master" and "originator".)
-Jesus is born miraculously by the will of God by Mary, an unmarried virgin.
-The Holy Spirit is usually said to be the messenger angel Gabriel when it is used to refer to the Holy Spirit that assisted Jesus. Gabriel is also considered the messenger who brought the messages and revelation of God to Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam.
-Muhammed is the last prophet, and the Qur'an is the last holy book, in a series of Prophets and holy books that all taught strict monotheism but were degraded by false doctrines by later generations, corrupting the message of God each time and leading themselves into unwarranted thinking by associating partners with God or sometimes separating the attributes (names or epithets) of God into individual representations that they worshiped as distinct of God, or worshiping idols or natural elements.
-All mankind has at different periods of time received the message of God, to worship only the Ultimate, to give in charity, and to expect Judgment after the resurrection of mankind.
-Many muslims have also adopted the Christian idea of the return of Jesus (Eesa the Messiah) and the defeat of the antichrist (whom they call Dajjal) from the book of revelation but this is not mentioned in the Qur'an.
-Nobody can carry the sins of another, nor can anyone lift the burden of sin from another besides God alone, and lifting such a burden is easy for God and requires no complicated procedure or human sacrifice. God is often called by the name "Rahman" which can mean "The Most Compassionate Sympathizer" who is mentioned in the Qur'an as being "oft-forgiving...forgiving again and again".

Christians:
-There is only One God.
-God existed eternally before anything and creates "ex nihilo" meaning something like "from nothing" or "out of nothing".
-Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary miraculously.
-Jesus is the Messiah, the anointed one (The muslims agree up to this point, and the word Messiah is used in reference of Jesus in the Qur'an as well), a term that denotes being chosen by God for prophecy and even kingship such as in the case of Cyrus and David (David, King of Israel whom he is said to be the descendent of).
___________
-God is a Trinity, having three manifestations made of one substance, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, all being one and equal, just different forms of the One God.
-The person of Jesus of Nazareth was the "begotten son" of God, a manifestation of the "Word of God" which is said to eternally exist with God, as God. (The Qur'an agrees that Jesus is the "word of God" or "Command of God" in the sense of saying "Be" and it is, but not that Jesus is co-eternal and one with God, but rather like Adam, a creation.)
-Jesus, God in the form of The Begotten Son of God born by the Mother of God Mary suffered and died on the Cross to fulfill the the requirements to have all mankind cleared of sin, but bad people who especially don't believe in Jesus or his sacrifice will still go to hell for rejecting this gift.
-Jesus came back to life after giving his gift to the righteous dead as well, after 3 days of being dead, and then ascended into the sky to "be with the Father" who is also him.

Orthodox and Protestant objection and variation:
-Orthodox Christians believe all of the above but depart with the following but may not regard the Roman Catholic Pope as the major spiritual authority on Earth.

Protestant objection:
-Rejection of the Roman Catholic Pope as the representative authority of the Christian community or Christ.
-The Bible can be interpreted by the informed reader, and thus a priestly caste is not required to interpret scriptures authoritatively (The Protestant rejection of the Pope plays an important role in the types of Christianity that influenced the development of Mormonism).

Mormons:
-Only God is to be worshiped. (Muslims and Christians agree).
-There is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit (Muslims do not agree, Christians continue to agree).
-The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are part of the Godhead, a unity that works together in unison. (Christians agree, though they are being somewhat misled by misuse of language in this matter).
-The Father is not the Son, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. (Christians disagree and depart here).
-The Father is a man who by following certain eternal doctrines and spiritual precepts became a God.
-The Father has a wife whom he produces Spirit Children with, who incarnate into fleshy bodies on Earth.
-The Father is the literal father of both the spirit version of Jesus who existed before the Earthly incarnation of which The Father is also the literal biological father of the bodily Jesus who was born from Mary (lack of clarity arises here between Mormons if that means that The Father literally had intercourse with Mary, thus nullifying her virginity and the miraculousness of the birth).
-The Father is just one of many gods and godesses who exist and have existed since ancient times, but The Father, as the Father of humans, should be worshiped only to gain one of the three spiritual paradises.
-One must be baptized in the Mormon fashion to receive one of the three spiritual paradises or else they are left in darkness in the afterlife (this is why mormons "baptize the dead" which frees the spirit from what is usually called "spirit prison" which is where all the non-baptized go, though the Mormons disbelieve in a fiery hell.)

These seem to be the major differences that separate Muslims from Christians and Christians from Mormons.

Here is a comparison of shared qualities between Muslims, Christians, and Mormons:

Muslims, Christians, and Mormons all claim to worship God.

The Muslims believe in Allah, who they believe is the One God, the Ultimate. The word Allah comes from the ancient semitic word used most often to denote the first and highest originator of everything. The term Allah can mean (due to its possible root associations) the following:

"The Absolutely Ultimate Inviolable Singular Supremely Powerful One To Which All Reverential Worship Rightfully Belongs"

For more information you can see the following:



Here is a comparison of shared qualities between Muslims, Christians, and Mormons:

They all claim to believe in God and they all claim to be Monotheistic.
-The God of Muslims is the Ultimate One
-The God of the Christians is the Trinity
-The God of the Mormons is The Father who they worship Henotheistically

They all claim to frown upon pre-marital sex:
-Christians who are less religious but still identify with Christianity may be lax in this area.
-Mormons are more strict in this area, and sealing after marriage or as part of marriage is an important Mormon ritual to attain an exalted state of Godhood.
-Muslims strongly shun fornication and pre-marital sex, and virginity and chastity is usually encouraged and treasured.

They all frown upon drinking alcohol, especially excessively but:
-The Christians often drink alcohol, and alcohol is part of Roman Catholic ritual.
-Muslims are turned away from alcohol by the Qur'an and also the traditions that came later. Muslims also shun pork meat which Christians and Mormons consume despite what the Old Testament says (which is why Jews avoid pork).
-Mormons are told not to have alcohol largely from doctrinal interpretation and common practice, similarly they avoid caffiene.

The Muslims are the strictest and most populous adherents of pure monotheism in the world, also having carried on the ancient style of worship that was practiced throughout the world prior to Islam among most people of the world (it is still roughly practiced among Buddhists, Hindus, Shinto practitioners, and other traditionalist religions like the Tibetan traditional religion).

The Christians are most similar to the Muslims, especially some older Orthodox sects who continue to worship in the ancient fashion to some degree.

The Catholics diverge from the Orthodox and are even less similar to the Muslims.

The Protestant diverge from the Catholics over the Papacy, and resemble muslims only in their lack of a hierarchal priesthood.

The Mormons are more similar to Christians and least similar to Muslims, but would be considered hellbound heretics by most devout and knowledgeable (in their religious doctrines) Muslims and Christians.

The Mormons resemble the Catholics in tithing and their hierarchal rankings but are also more like Protestants were the more direct antecedent (predecessors).

So on the surface, Mormons and Western Christians and Christians at large may seem similar, but the beliefs of Mormons are not in accord with those believed by most Christians and are in complete discord with those promoted by the Qur'an and Islam.

Buster  Wrote:

http://www.mormonmuslim.com/

MORMON MUSLIM.COM

Devoted to increasing understanding and interfaith dialogue between Mormons and Muslims around the world

The outreach seems to be mainly coming from Mormons, who must have come to the belief that the "muslim world" is a huge demographic ripe for conversion.

I've listed in earlier posts here all the differences with muslims and mormons. If muslims knew what mormons really preach they would find their religion even more incompatible with Islam than mainstream Christianity which is much more compatible with Islam than Mormon doctrines. That is why many Christians end up becoming muslims, because the jump is so little, all that is dropped is the Trinity and the belief that Jesus is the "son" of God who carried the sins of people, and the addition of muslim worship and they are muslims. The Virgin Birth, the honorable status of Jesus, that Jesus is the Messiah all remain.

The Qur'an accurately states that Christians are closest to muslims, and this is doctrinally true, but the Qur'an is completely against the trinity, and even more against the Mormon version of the Godhead (God team of 3 literally separate individuals). Mormons are furthest from muslims, and Christians have long desired converting muslims to Islam with very little luck as compared to the rate at which Christians become muslims.

Islam is basically a simpler yet more strict version of Christianity. There is no complication in beliefs, and the main strictness is only in regard to daily worship rather than just attending Church on sunday like many Christians resign to doing at most.

Mormon missionaries don't stand a good chance of converting devout muslims (the likely majority), while Christians who are more educated and learned would have a tendency to become more tolerant of Islam and even convert.

If a muslim won't even accept Jesus as the "son of God" how much harder would it be to convince them that God is an "exalted man".

There are videos of converts leaving Mormonism to become Muslim, and one of them was very ashamed for having believed in much of the Mormon teachings. He was led to reject Mormonism due to science proving some things through genetics and other factors which made him doubt Mormon history and teaching, and then was impressed by the cleanliness and piety of some muslim promoter he saw one day.

czygyny  Wrote:

Oh, and praise YHWH, the El of Avraham, Yitchak and Ya'acov, and hold to the testimony of Y'ahshua ha Mashiach, Son of the living Elohim. We can come to the Father by no other name!

(You are correct about Mary, she has no power)

Those terms will especially pass with more people if pais is used rather than son and pater rather than Father, since pais can also mean servant or herald to a King and pater can also mean master and originator (God is called the pater of the stars or something in the New Testament).

Father and Son are understood too biologically in english today rather than metaphorically, and so people then think that Jesus is the biological son and that God is a man-being when God is not a man nor has literal biological children through procreation but is the creator and pater (master and originator) of all and Jesus was brought into being by the command (word) of God, thus Jesus is the "word incarnate", and all that exists was by the "word/command" of God, that is how God creates, by saying "Be" and it is, just like it describes in Genesis.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Mormons don't cut people's heads off for criticizing them or murder their daughters over rumors.

Read history much?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_a...l_violence

Mountain Meadows massacre
The widely publicized Mountain Meadows massacre of September 11, 1857 during the Utah War was a mass killing of Arkansan emigrants by a Mormon militia led by prominent Mormon leader John D. Lee, who was later executed for his role in the killings. After escalating rumors that some of the emigrants had participated in early Mormon persecution, the militia conducted a siege, and when the emigrants surrendered, the militia killed men, women, and children in cold blood, adopted some of the surviving children, and attempted a cover-up.
Though widely connected with the blood atonement doctrine by the United States press and general public, there is no direct evidence that the massacre was related to "saving" the emigrants by the shedding of their blood (as they had not entered into Mormon covenants); rather, most commentators view it as an act of intended retribution. Young was accused with either directing the massacre, or with complicity after the fact. When Brigham Young was interviewed on the matter and asked if he believed in blood atonement, he replied, "I do, and I believe that Lee has not half atoned for his great crime." He said "we believe that execution should be done by the shedding of blood instead of by hanging," but only "according to the laws of the land" (Young 1877, p. 242).

Thomas Coleman murder
An example used by some[who?] to illustrate the alleged practice blood atonement is the 1866 murder of the former-slave, Thomas Coleman (or Colburn), who was in good standing as a member of the LDS Church. As Mormon historian D. Michael Quinn has documented, Coleman was apparently secretly courting a white Mormon woman. At one of their clandestine meetings behind the old Arsenal (on what is now Capitol Hill in Salt Lake) on December 11, Coleman was discovered by "friends" of the woman. The group of vigilantes hit Coleman with a large rock. Using his own bowie knife, his attackers slit his throat so deeply from ear to ear that he was nearly decapitated, as well as slicing open his right breast, in what some believe was a mimicry of penalties illustrated in the temple ritual. Not all of Coleman's wounds correlated with the temple ritual, however, since he was also castrated. A pre-penciled placard was then pinned to his corpse stating, "NOTICE TO ALL NIGGERS - TAKE WARNING - LEAVE WHITE WOMEN ALONE." Even though it was the middle of winter, a grave was dug and Coleman's body was buried. The body was disposed of in less than three hours after its discovery. Less than twelve hours after that, Judge Elias Smith, first cousin of Joseph Smith, appointed George Stringham (a Mormon ruffian and vigilante with ties to Porter Rockwell, Jason Luce, and William Hickman) as the foreman of the Coroner's Jury; they briefly met and summarily dismissed the case as a crime that was committed either by a person or by persons unknown to the jury, abruptly ending all official inquiry into the bizarre murder.[15]

Post: #3923

pingu  Wrote:

Today,,

I have mostly been reading Mr freedom stands thread..You are an intelligent chap..

What other stuff do you write..And are you really a rouge Psycologist?

Funnily enough, I think I might actually qualify as a "rouge psychologist", since I know a bit about psychology and often have tried to advise and help people with their issues!

What I enjoy most is studying the various topics I love, such as History, Philosophy, Religion/Theology and Mythology, Languages and Linguistics, and some aspects of literature and literary history and historical developments of literature (the histories that lead to modern literary trends).

I don't enjoy the discussion of current politics, since I have only brief overall statements about things, mainly that lies and propaganda pervade the mainstream media and one should avoid participating in such useless and stress-inducing discourse.

I also don't care much for math, and psychology or medical sciences much, though I like psychology more than medicine due to its philosophical aspects. I also like learning about recent scientific advances in some cases, but I don't generally care about the technicalities as much as the utility of such things. Also in regard to medical sciences, it is utility and what to avoid that concerns me most probably, and some aspects of how things work in the body are interesting (and I'm pretty good with health science stuff) but I don't have a fascination with the grotesque like some people (like those who might watch surgeries being performed or look at pictures of deformities and diseases).

__________

The 72 virgins thing is nowhere in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an says people will be reunited with their families but for those who don't have a spouse (this applies to both men and women) they can receive a partner in paradise.

Ultimately marriage and partnership isn't the important focus of the Qur'an so much as monotheistic worship and giving charity.

Someone said something about women in hell so I replied

"There is a hadith (folk story) written down in Persia that is where that thing that is being referred to came from, it appears in the Sahih Bukhari, but the Qur'an says no such thing. The same Sahih Bukhari collection of things written long after Muhammed was dead, says anyone with even an atom's worth of good in them will be released from hell.

The Qur'an says that no injustice will be done to people and everyone will have justly earned their rewards or punishments based on the conduct of their life. "

The Qur'an actually gives what might be a surprising amount of consideration to women at a time when such consideration would have been seen as highly unusual.

Maybe it has some basis somewhere in some obscure writing, but it is certainly not in the Qur'an and is not some widely known thing if it is real at all.

The hadiths are written 200 years after the hijra (and more than 200 years later) in Persia by people who had no contact with anyone who might have known Muhammed since all were dead by then, and all the stories in it could be totally made up (though they tried to come with a list of narrators, most of whom were dead, and if even 1 lied, or didn't exist, or was lied about, the whole story would fall apart, making it all very unreliable).

Tons of weird stories by converts during the emergence of Islam popped up in various cultures around the world, and the Persians were the first to try to collect some of these folktales and write them down.

The Qur'an was older than these stories and likely does indeed come from the lifetime of Muhammed. It is very different in its style and knowledge compared to the hadiths which are clearly traditions and stories people just shared with each other or made up and spread from word of mouth or were invented for political reasons when Muhammed was long dead.

haha there are people on youtube warning of muslim "love jihad" where muslim men are loving women and so people are marrying muslims or something.

Many people have positive stories about their relationships with muslims, and others don't, but nothing justifies any mistreatment of women, and the Qur'an and hadiths both don't permit abuses that people claim muslims do (and if they do it, they are in the wrong for doing it by their own religious standards).

Even the "beating" verse in the Qur'an widely promoted by people seems to actually be talking about something else entirely and not beating in any sense, but even those who think it means "beating" legally limit themselves to a tiny twig which they think they can use for any reprimands, but nobody really uses any such thing and contrary to popular belief muslim women (since even early times) have been very dominant in the culture, controlling both political decisions and family households and education of children (when they stay at home) and are usually very powerful if not the most powerful in the family structures I've seen.

There is a saying among muslims that paradise or heaven is at the feet of the mother or something, showing their deep love and respect for their mothers, and I've never seen different in my experiences with muslims.

They were given the power to control who they marry and to be able to reject any marriage offers and divorce of their own will and can not have the dowry given to them revoked by the male even if the marriage is anulled nor can the male absorb her wealth by force but she controls it.

It speaks of "believing men" and "believing women" next to each other on equal terms. It says men have a degree of responsibility towards women (which people translate as that "men are higher than women" or whatever idea people say) which is about men being the ones who are more obligated to pay for things if the women chooses not to work, but no restrictions are made on women from working or earning their own income (nor do they need any permission to do this, but they aren't required to do this either).

It makes people focus on or remember the difficulty that women have to go through in life, like their cramps during the period and childbirth and tells people to have lots of respect for women and be forgiving and nice (the hadith also says positive things about women about always being kind to them and the rewards for giving them things and making them happy).

It is indeed pretty insulting when people lie as wildly as they do about Islam, and many muslim people are ignorant of the Qur'an as well largely.

Post: #3924

LoP Guest  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Did anyone read my long, thick, beautiful posts in this thread? There are two, and by reading them, you will gain some religious literacy you may be lacking (or may refresh knowledge you already have about the three religions mentions in my posts).

If you did read them thoroughly, I'd like to know! Reading them may increase your awareness and possibly benefit you!

The only thing I need to know about religion is the irrefutable FACT that anyybody that believes in them is a complete and utter shit for brains moron.

That is a really big generalization. Just because you don't believe in or understand something doesn't mean that other people don't have justifications (usually called apologies or apologetic explanations) that are logical and reasonable.

When I approach religion, I try to understand it and even to justify the beliefs, by not only studying their formation, but also how they can be references to actual things that only get corrupted through later interpretation and faulty explanations.

I, for one, actually believe in all the religions (in forms made compatible with one another) other than Mormonism. Mormonism is the most uncompatible with my beliefs since it requires faith in and belief that there is an actual "man" who should be called "God". Such a belief (that God is literally a man) makes it pretty incompatible with just about all world religions before it (especially the well known ones of Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, and the world's traditional religions and mythologies when carefully understood in regard to the use of symbolic and poetic language in reference to natural events which may have evolved from a kind of animism, animism is also in accord with all religions and in a way even science if understood in certain ways).

I┴∀NIW∩˥˥Iʞ  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I┴∀NIW∩˥˥Iʞ  Wrote:

The thing is tho not all j-e-w-s are terrorists but most terrorists are j-e-w-s

FIXED

okay you can act dumb thats fine you seem very good at it

Killuminati, if you said "most terrorists are muslims" you're vastly ignorant on the subject. Go read the statistics, you'll see among terrorists muslims are one of the smallest minority types, the majority of terrorists are NOT MUSLIM NOR IDENTIFY WITH MUSLIMS. Even Jewish terrorists are at a number close to the muslims (a tiny percent of overall terrorists).

You can easily find the real statistics online but here are some to give you an idea:
Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 99.6% that Aren’t
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/


All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 94% that Aren’t
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all...e-muslims/


Those aren't even super old statistics, one is up to 2005, one is up to 2009. DON'T KID YOURSELF.

PEOPLE WHO SAY ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS ARE BEING SILLY AND SPREADING LIES.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b17ME0wXjDk

To top it off, the supposed "muslim" terrorists are probably not even muslims either and have only worked for the benefit of the Americans and Israeli and other governments to spread restrictive laws they wanted to impose (with justifications they invent through these acts) and invasions (to rape natural resources). SO COME ON WAKE UP.

HOW EASY IS IT TO PRETEND YOU'RE A WACKY MUSLIM LIKE THE PEOPLE IN THE ABOVE VIDEO SEEM TO BE? DISINFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION AGENTS IN ALL LIKELIHOOD.

PLEASE NOTE, NOBODY SHOULD HATE "JEWS" AS AN ETHNICITY.

PEOPLE ON LOP (SOME) DO NOT AGREE WITH ZIONISTIC GOVERNMENT POLICIES.

ZIONISM IS NOT JUDAISM IS NOT JEWISH ETHNICITY.

Judaism is a religion, Jewish is an ethnic identity, and Zionism is a nationalistic government ideology which is the main administrative force in ZIONIST ISRAEL.

People opposed to ZIONISM are not always opposed to Jews living in Israel or Israel as a nation, just that some people disagree and dislike the policies and activities of ZIONISTS and ZIONIST GOVERNMENT because it appears to be very radical and harmful to JEWS AND ARABS AND OTHERS IN THE WORLD.

OK? I hope you agree with my layout.

All the people of the middle east and even Ethiopia mainly speak Semitic languages part of the Semitic language family. Israelites are one group of the semitic language speaking people, but everyone else including Arabs and even Babylonians and Akkadians and Assyrians and whatever else Phoenicians are semitic language speaking too.

Many people of Jewish ancestry and ethnicity do not practice Judaism. I just wanted to add that too.

Another thing, MUSLIM doesn't = ARAB and it isn't an ethnicity, but a term that should be very specifically attributed to people who practice the religion of Islam.

The majority of muslims are NOT ARAB. Indonesians, the people who would qualify as South East Asian Islanders, might be the most populous.

The most muslims are Asians, particularly South East Asians, followed by Indians including Pakistani people. Arabs are a minority.

Someone said:

"It doesn't take a linguistic expert to notice similarity between Hebrew and Arab language; for instance:

Peace: Shalom (Hebrew) / Salaam (Arab)
God: Elohim (Hebrew) / Allah (Arab) "


Another said:

"basically, logic dictates that we are all vaginites, we all come from a vagina. doesn't matter what plot of land you pop-out on.

don't be anti-vaginitic. peace, out."

hasha Ilove that VAGINITES! YEAH!

SOME PEOPLE ARENT VAGINITES, SOME PEOPLE ARE CESARIAN!

lol yeah, how can you be a semite (even by their standards) and be an anti-semite while supporting semites.

Yes, but it is an unfair term, since the arabs are semites and speak semitic languages.

In Judaism, if one is to accept that the Bible is literally true, then the Arabs are considered semites descended from Abraham by way of Ishmael but MIXED with "Egyptian" blood through Hagar, and Egyptians were considered CHAMITIC (Hamitic) which is basically what Africans in general are considered.

Ham if you'll noticed (was likely retrospectively in writings) CURSED to be subordinate and slaves by Noah, and Jews and Christians have used this to justify many racist ideas in the past.

Elohim (pronounced properly as Uhlawheem) is the plural intensive form of the singular word Eloah (pronounced Uhlaw) and has the same root 'lh (' is an uh sound, for Alif), as Allah (pronounced Uhlaw).

Its pretty much the same word, the only difference is Allah is only used to mean the Supreme God, while Elohim can be used to mean any God and is somewhat more similar in its usage at times to the Arabic Illah (meaning god, but the root has more meanings which I will discuss below)

_______

The word Allah has very ancient roots in the semitic languages. The roots of the word Allah seem to give the extended possible meaning of “The Absolutely Ultimate Inviolable Singular Supremely Powerful One Rightfully Worshiped Reverently” since the roots AL (Alif Laam), ALh (Alif Laam ha), and possibly ALL (Alif Laam Laam) appear to be present at once (though the main root is most often considered to be ALh).

The root AL (or EL as it is rendered at other times in regard to other semitic languages) is the “definite article” but also can mean the supreme or maximum and definitive of whatever is being spoken of. ALh implies reverential worship, veneration full of awe, and that which receives such veneration and worship. ALL indicates sacred rights, a covenant, and inviolability (inviolability means invulnerability to harm or invincibility as well as being beyond anything insulting, slanderous, or false. It is a term that can be used to mean a kind of holy sanctity that can not be degraded or brought low).

In Aramaic the word for God in the Absolute Singular form is AaLaH (the root letters are capitalized and the term can be pronounced Uhlawh). In the older Akkadian language, the word Allallu could mean something like Powerful God, and Alla in the same languages indicates to be “beyond”, while eli (uhlee) can indicate overpowering superiority and highness in authority and rank. Ela, another Akkadian word can indicate exclusivity, apartness, and uniqueness. Ellu in Akkadian can mean “holy”, “sacred”, and “pure”. Elu can mean exalted and ahulla (akhullah) can mean to be “on the other side” perhaps even potentially indicating being beyond, behind, or on the other side of the physical world or reality.

All these meanings can be considered part of the word Allah, which is also related to the Hebrew word often transliterated as Eloah which is the main part of the word used mostly in the Bible in reference to Elohim (Uhlawheem) which is commonly used to refer to God. Eloah may be slightly more similar in usage to the Arabic word “illah” which can refer to anything that is worshiped or revered. The Chaldean form of “Elah” also occurs in the Hebrew Bible to refer to God at times. The Akkadian elelu (likely pronounced uhluhloo and considered related to the Arabic word halal) indicates purity.

These same terms that seem to be part of the word Allah are described throughout the Qur’an as various qualities of Allah, confirming at least in some way that it may not be entirely incorrect to see these attributes within the potential root meanings of the word “Allah” itself (however overly inclusive and folkish this extensive etymology may seem).

Since the full meaning may not be entirely or correctly conveyed by the word God (which comes from a word thought to mean “invoked” and also since the term “God" is often associated in popular culture to the idea of an old bearded human figure among clouds which is not a depiction in accord with the teachings of the Qur’an), and since many consider Allah to be the proper title for God, a large portion of translators have left the word rendered as “Allah” in its roman text form and avoided translating it to “God” or anything else.

As a side note of possible interest, the Greeks encountered the word as Alalu, used by the Hurrians, the Greeks associated the term with the Hypsistos, the idea of the absolute highest, ultimate, and first. When Greeks encountered El, 'l or 'lh (all probably pronounced Uhluh), which was the word used in the Levantine for the supreme God and originator of everything, the Greek Philon associated El with Kronos, possibly due to the “cleaving apart” of the heavens and the earth which is a theme found in the Bible as well as the Qur’an which the word “Kronos” may mean if it means “cleaver” or “cutter”. Some ancient bilingual inscriptions equate “El the creator of the Earth” with “Poseidon” which may have also been considered the main name or attribute for the creator among some communities.

El appears at the top of a list of powers and attributes from ancient Elba as the ultimate and most ancient originator of all the natural forces and powers. Uhlah in its various spellings is basically most often found as the word designated for the most supreme and highest ancient originator among all the semitic language speaking communities and civilizations. An ancient inscription in a mine on Mount Sinai reads “El Eternal”. Hurrians called El, “El of Judgment” and “El of the Covenant” both ideas which occur in the Qur’an. El is also called “baatnyu binwaati” which means “Creator of the creatures”.

Herodotus claimed the ancient Arabians he spoke of venerated only two things, which he called “Orotalt and Alilat”. Herodotus associated Alilat with the Aryan concept of Mitra which to the Aryans meant “contract” or “covenant” and was used sometimes to imply a “divine covenant” or “divine right”. Herodotus says “The Assyrians call Aphrodite Mylitta, the Arabians Alilat, and the Persians Mitra. In addition that deity is associated with the Indian deity Mitra.” and in reference to the ancient Arabians he spoke of “They believe in no other gods except Dionysus and the Heavenly Aphrodite” and says “They call Dionysus, Orotalt; and Aphrodite, Alilat”. Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says that Orotalt may be from a corruption of Allah Ta'ala (which means Allah the exalted or Allah the glorified). The covenant is prominently mentioned among those who believe in El and in the Qur’an, and so the association with Mitra in its original meaning unembellished by symbolic humanization may be accurate. The Qur’an mentions that some of the people at the time of the Qur’an say Alilat

Later, Christian writers would associate the God of the semitic regions and the “Saracens” (a term used for semitic people such as arabs and muslims) with the term Apollyon which is also a translation of the word Abaddon from the Bible. This understanding, if not simply to incite fear and to slander the semitic nations, may have derived from the main component of the word Apollyon which is Olluein meaning “destroy” or “destroyer” in Greek. The term Allah (pronounce Uhllawh”) and “Olluein” sound similar, so if Orotalt was the transliteration of Allah Ta’ala given by Herodotus, Olluein may have been more readily heard by the Christians encountering those who said their God is “Allah” or even among those who say their God is “Elohim” which is the name often used for God in the Hebrew Bible but probably not well known among the Christians unfamiliar with Hebrew.

The term “Destroyer”, “The Destroyer” or “God the Destroyer" may also be a possible transliteration of the Biblical epithet El Shaddai if the central component of the word “Shaddai” is derived from shadad which means to destroy or overpower and has come to imply power and might (thus El Shaddai is often translated as “God Almighty” rather than ”God the Destroyer”), but the term has been also associated with mountains, and with all combined meanings could remind muslims of the story of the mountain being utterly destroyed by Allah before Musa (Moses) at his request to see the power of Allah or other references in the Qur’an to the eventual obliteration of mountains such as before Judgment Day.

Many upon encountering the word spelled as “Allah” do not know how to pronounce it. Allah can be pronounced Uhllawh which is Uh-Lah which can be rounded slightly and elongated as UhLLaawh.

____________

lol well anyone can look it up, nothing I said was deliberate disinformation.

some people do consider Zionism to be a racist ideology.

Many of the ideas of the founding fathers of Zionism and early Zionists were not as bad seeming as the radical Zionists of today.

If someone wants to discuss a political ideology in normal terms like communism, socialism, national socialism, or even Zionism and try to present apologetic explanations for things I don't think people would freak out.

When people sense the nasty war mongering fear mongering tendencies of modern Zionism and its racist undercurrents, they might get a bit turned off and it may lead to people being hostile about it.

If Zionism MERELY MEANS Jews living in Israel, not everyone would have a problem with that. When living in Israel means government support of forced colonization of (often violent and extremist) settlers who take the land and livelihood of poverty stricken villager who were already present there in the name "4000 year old rights" to the land and things like that, it seems unjust and wrong.

Jews have long lived in Israel, even before the British mandate, even during Muslim and Christian rule. Suppressing an entire people in the fashion that native Americans were alienated and slowly ethnically cleansed in America is not considered cool by many soft hearted sympathetic people. It is hard to justify such a thing when one considers humans to be humans and nobody to be particularly chosen and the poor in need of protection and support rather than suppression and phosphorous bombs burning their eyes out.

Someone said:

"Yes , I don't think this strain of Zionism today is what Hertzel had in mind."

Yep, not at all, even Communism and Socialism have good ideals but in implementing them they turn way sour.

The early fathers of Zionism wrote positive things many times, and even seemed to want an integrated Israel where everyone is equal and there are full rights for everyone. They even went so far as to want to consider the Palestinians as the ancient left behind remnants of Jewish people with Jewish identity and warned not to alienate and exclude them.

WTF HAPPENED. These insane people in power now are causing Zionism to be one of the most HATED political ideologies the world has ever seen.

The Zionists of today ARE NOT a benefit to the Jewish people. If tact was used, Jewish identity would be among the cherished cultural heritages, rather than being associated with further acts of villainy due to radical zionism.

Someone said:

"a vigilant posture is required" in reference to Zionist politics.

I'm sorry that you think a "vigilant defensive posture is required". I think tact is required. Tact in this case would mean Zionist government activities and decisions not being so blatantly in the fashion of "you (are accused of killing some of ours), we will kill many of yours (though civilians are the ones who are unfairly killed on all sides, and if you read the book 1984 again you may see how random rockets were fired by unknowns to justify further attacks and killings)".

The "vigilant defensive posture" has not led to many fond thoughts about the modern Zionists, and it doesn't have much to do with people "hating" over "Jewishness" or any of that. People disliked Bush too for seeming like a war monger and a killer, and they did not hate him over a Jewish identity, but because of the activities of his administration.

Nazis were National Socialists, that what Nazism was, Ultra Nationalism, an obsession with "German Identity" and the belief that "The German People" had the right to their "Ancestral lands" and violently tried to acquire and control them while alienating and excluding the ethnic population which in that case was Jewish (in the case of Israel it is Palestinian) so wtf is the difference (pretty much NO DIFFERENCE, AND THAT IS WHY PEOPLE OFTEN USE THE TERM "zionazi" and things like that, because they can't help but notice the DAMN SIMILARITIES in BEHAVIOR).

Anyone who sits by and things HUMAN SUFFERING is OK or justified, is a SOCIOPATH, a SICKO.

The Germans harming the Jews was not right, and the Israeli Zionists harming the Palestinians is not right.

If some random criminal (and who knows who) does shoots some rocket, that does not justify indiscriminate bombings of civilians and killing women and children, poor farmers and practically homeless wealthless people over it.

Zionist Israel is hated today for INJUSTICE and what is perceived to be INJUSTICE, and many Jews are opposed to Zionist Israel as well.

My hope for Israel is that the Jewish people remain in Israel but do not continue to colonize into the land of other people, that the Palestinians are allowed to integrate normally, that EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMMING IS PROVIDED to reduce RACISM that runs rampant in Israel, and finally that a MODERATE SECULAR GOVERNMENT that is NOT RADICALLY ZIONIST will come into power (and I expect this to be Jewish government, but not these freaking BIBI NUT AND YAHOO types who are constantly goading for war and demolition peoples homes and orchards).

(The radicals parties or)

Whoever the heck they are, they have for a while now been destroying the image of Zionism around the world, harming the Jewish identity, and ruining Israel and ruining the whole world with their intrigues and horrors.

The Zionists of today may pretend to be religious, but in all likelihood they are completely atheistic, and thus have no real concern or fear of God or Judgment for their conduct and condone really bad things that I don't think even the Bible would justify (even though one of the commandments is considered to be the eradication of all Canaanites, and some may call Palestinians Canaanites or Palestinians may call themselves that foolishly and lead to religious radicals feeling justified in harassing and killing the locals, even the New Testament contains racism towards "Canaanites" when Jesus ignores a pleading woman begging for her daughter's health and compares her to a dog)

The person who mentioned a "vigilant posture" said:


"Consider.

"Random" rockets fired into San Diego from Tijuana by "unknowns" [ drug cartels?] The government there does nothing about [ They are afraid to be beheaded ] I'm sure "tact" would be a appropriate response ? San Diego used to be in Mexico anyway. So SD is "occupied" by newcomer infidels. No moral ground for a physical response then."

Consider.

"Random" rockets fired by government agents to justify mass murder and further theft of land in the name of justified retribution. Civilians pay the price for the acts of unknowns, the only party benefiting are the ones who use it as a means to continue to massacre the minority group.

As for your wonderful scenario, do you think if a drug dealer came into America and shot a rocket or blew a bomb up, it would justify helicopters to go and shoot rockets indiscriminately at Mexican villagers?

Alright. Our discussion matters little anyway because whatever happens the Radical Zionists will always win because they are better armed and have more powerful allies, so that is the end of the story. The Palestinian people are doomed and have been for a very long time (and no, nothing justifies their doom, and no it isn't their own fault, and no it isn't right or good).

I don't think other nations are equal in the amount of violence it performs either. The Palestinians should've been considered (even if they didn't want to be considered) A PART OF ISRAEL and given FULL CITIZENSHIP AND FULL RIGHTS and their ETHNIC IDENTITY should've been MINIMIZED rather than EXASPERATED by alienating them and encroaching on their properties.

Then Israel couldn't make it out to be a war, because in all truth, the Palestinians and Israeli Jews are BOTH living in Israel and should be considered ISRAELI and then the ISRAELI government should help and support them and not kill them.

That is also what some of the forefathers of Zionism had intended, and this direction of slow ethnic cleansing and alienation is what makes people disgusted with modern Zionism.

There should be NO DISTINCTION ON ISRAELI ID as to "Arab Israeli" or any of that crap, it should be ONE ISRAEL, ALL PEOPLE INCLUDED, ALL OF THEM EQUAL, ALL OF THEM SUPPORTED AND HELPED, ALL OF THEM GIVEN AN ISRAELI IDENTITY (EVEN IF PALESTINIAN POLITICAL LEADERS SAY THEY DONT WANT TO BE ISRAELI, THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN AS AN AUTOMATIC STATUS, JUST LIKE ALASKANS WHO MAY WANT TO BE SEPARATISTS ARE STILL CONSIDERED AMERICAN CITIZENS AND HAVE ACCESS TO ALL THE SAME AMENITIES AND SOCIAL RIGHTS).

Yep, that is how it should be. A Citizen of ROME should have been a ROMAN, a Citizen of America an AMERICAN THATS IT. A person living in Israel an ISRAELI ALL RIGHTS INCLUDED. It will never happen probably, and nobody wants it to happen, and so the end will just be constant war and death until the Palestinian numbers are so reduced that they become irrelevant and all their land is stolen by the settlers.

The National Socialists were particularly against "foreign agitators" specifically Communists, many of whom were also ethnically Jewish.

Since Communism seemed what was likely to overtake Germany during the Weimar Republic, the Banksters installed the Anti Communists called National Socialists who were against Russian allied Communism.

Jews were used as a way to rally the people through hate and round up populations that were deemed full of potentially dangerous communists with the excuse of Jews. It wasn't that simple though, Jews were also blamed for the loss of WW1 and the signing of a certain treaty which left Germany in an economic situation that was failing.

There is a whole ton of complex history.

What is important is, BANKERS WERE FUNDING THE AXIS AND THE ALLIES and were behind much of the evils. The BUSH FAMILY was part of dealings with Nazis too and even the selling of gas for gas chambers made money for the war profiteers.

These same evil scumbags continued their financial empires and aquisitions to this day.

The New Jews are Muslims and "Conspiracy Theorists", the new Nazis are the Zionists, and the profiteers are all the same.

Innocent civilians are always killed by evil heartless jerks in power who control the banks and corporations.

Jews, Russians, and many people were murdered over the games of super villains.

Yep, just like there was no such place called "Pakistan" or "Uganda" or "India" until it was called that.

Even though the name of a place didn't exist, it doesn't mean families weren't living there (Jewish, Arab, and Christians), farming and doing hard work, taking care of their homes and lives. Then the British took over eventually and then a bunch of people from other countries started to migrate and more pressure came on the British. Jump to the future and "Settlers" have been used to keep pushing the other people living in Israel into a tighter and tighter situation as they lose more and more of their ability to survive (such as the loss of local farms and orchards and the demolitions of old homesteads to replace them with radical settler communities).

In my posts I just mainly said Judaism doesn't = Jewish ethnic identity doesn't = Zionism (since one is a religion, the other is an ethnic identity though many are atheists, and the other is a political movement). I hadn't read the OP's post carefully until your post to see if it was racist, and I indeed did sense a tinge of possible racism or at least prejudice toward the poor who use social benefits or rely on them to try to survive. Most people (though I know the OP didn't say this) associate the idea of "welfare" with African Americans in the Ghetto, but they also associate it with other Americans who are poor, but it is often tied with racism.

Was there anything particular you would like to point out about the OP's post that you found offensive?

Race is used an excuse by tacticians to distract from the real issues.

Race is also used to censor important topics and make attacks against people.

Its an ugly game, and the players ain't pretty either.

You're right, I think it might have been a bait attempt. Commando, can you explain yourself? What was the point of this thread?

I didn't make the OP and I'm not Commando. I never use proxy posts and I never post as other than FreedomStands. The other day I posted in a thread as a lopguest because I was banned and couldn't use FreedomStands but D allows posts as a lop guest then in order to request unbans.

I never hide when I post or whatever and I don't have any other accounts. People used to accuse me of playing as proxy posters who were harassing me but the mods verified I never did that.

Also, my views posted as FreedomStands are pretty much my real views.

My main views posted on this website are:
1. All religions since ancient times are understandable and most if not all refer to real things, and most have the same ideas about God which can be understood logically (most also had the same worship practices and beliefs too). Judaism and Christianity and Islam particularly were all have their root in the Semitic languages also so I usually try to get people to understand them better (that they all talk about "Uhllaw" and are not that different from each other).

2. That the Media presents blatant lies that are manufactured as propaganda to support their governments which are ultimate controlled by a powerful cabal that can be called "The Internationalist Corporatist Banksters" which some call "The Illuminati".

3. That there is no real left right dichotomy of parties in the USA but both democrats and republicans are all working for the same evil powers and already dominate the world through domination of the politics of powerful countries.

4. That Zionism in its modern form has proven to be very cruel and unjust, and that Israel should extend full rights and acceptance to all people living in and around Israel as automatic Israeli citizens, and offer equal education and support instead of alienation and horrific racist treatment that is similar to the Apartheid that was in South Africa and the ethnic cleansing by Serbs to Bosnians in what was once called Yugoslavia.

5. That people should become super informed and educated about whatever they want to speak about to increase their awareness and help others increase in awareness since world issues today have old historical roots and histories that are still relevant as well as other facts that are crucial like natural resources which corporations and war profiteers are always after.

Stuff like that.

They say that even when a person sleeps they still continue to dream.

I actually talked about that in the Unban Requests thread, how the habit of writing short things is retarding people and the usefulness (to oneself and others) of writing long things to keep the brain trained and to practice patience (like how a runner continues to run to build and maintain stamina while a person who ceases to do exercises slowly loses their stamina, the same applies to reading, thinking, typing, and reading).

They say that masturbation helps reduce the risk of cancer and other problems.

Yes, Psychnaut was saying the same thing about the few words and whatever, but I explained how one actually passes on less and less information to others by doing so to the detriment of everyone involved (including the person who isn't practicing extensive expression of ideas or whatever).

One book (I listened to the audio version recently) that kind of talks about this and how it happens in education as well is called Cultural Literacy. It talks about how Americans are not passing on information to each other and are learning things in a fragmented way and way later than they should which is leading to Americans (in 1986, its worse now) to be illiterate about a great many issues and also having increasing difficulty to understand and express ideas.

To be wise, one must be informed and expressive (doesn't mean being a jabber jaw is required, but like I tried to explain I think it works to help in many ways), then a person can make Zen Haikus, but really it actually helps people to read longer things because the more staccato communications become (like one liners and text messages) the less information and expression is passed on and the persons involved are retarding themselves and others. So one should talk to their kids, talk to their friends, read and listen, practice patience, and help everyone by doing so. Yeah, just a theory, but I think it is right.

I think the majority of right wing posts are probably pretty short and unintelligent so pretty much opposite to mine.

That doesn't mean I'm right or left, that is just about people who think of themselves as right wingers are falling for the trick (since they both are the pawns of the bad guys).

The Republicans used to be the good guys with the right ideas, LESS GOVERNMENT POWER (that was long ago), but the Republicans who are around today (and the democrats) are all working for nasty corporatist banking empires and are just scumbags flat out as far as I can tell. They didn't reduce government power, they keep trapping people, tightening laws, and making life suck.

Even in the Bible, the land was taken unjustly through pre-emptive war and murder.

I don't think I was trying to cloud the issue, I just noticed you mentioned Biblical Israel and I wanted to bring up the horrific way Israel was acquired according to the Bible.

Hi guys and gals, not to be a party pooper or anything but did you all know that you're powerless to affect any change in the government because it is fully infiltrated at the highest levels by super villains? They will give you a dollar and take 1000. One step back, 200 forward.

The news media only distracts people by keeping them hopelessly involved with the game they are playing, like a string dangling infront of cats.

Bit by bit all of us will become prisoners in our own countries even if we aren't in jail.

The "representatives" are NOT representing YOU or the people, they need all be thrown out of office but no matter what action is taken IT WILL ALWAYS BE INFILTRATED.

THIS IS BECAUSE YOUR ENEMY IS FAR MORE ORGANIZED AND PRACTICED AT INTRIGUE THAN THE NORMAL PEOPLE, EVERY REVOLUTIONARY GROUP BECOMES INFILTRATED, THEY WILL ALWAYS SNAKE THEIR WAY INTO THE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS AND ULTIMATE CONTROL BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!

So in our hopeless plight as slaves in name but not in heart...it is best to TURN OFF THE TV STOP WASTING YOUR PRECIOUS AND LIMITED TIME ON EARTH (life I mean, because so far nobody is immortal apparently), and CARE FOR YOUR FAMILIES, BE KIND TO YOUR ANIMALS, DO GOOD TO YOUR NEIGHBORS AND KIN, TREAT EVERYONE NICELY, GIVE DIRECT CHARITY TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND THE POOR AND NEEDY.

Turn off the TUBE and just spend your time being good and being happy and making THE LITTLE CIRCLE OF YOUR DIRECT ENVIRONMENT INCREASE IN GOODNESS, AND EXPAND IT FROM WHERE YOU ARE NOW.

Clean your room make it how you want it to be, kiss your family and make them laugh and make them happy.

This is my advice to you, dear slaves!

Live like gracious Kings in your own microverse and stay away from political lies and games because its just CRAP. Even violent solutions will fail in the end because of infiltration so there is no way to win really other than educating everyone EVEN THE CULTISTS BEHIND THIS EVIL CRAP WHO ARE SUPER IGNORANT (their soldiers are I mean), and spreading good in your own lives and around your own communities and expand your efforts covertly!

The media only exposes what they want you to hear, and so these "leaks" you spoke of are part of a larger narrative they are setting up and have written about in the past.

Their idea is to make an ultra oppressive government and fake a new age uprising that is overtaken by their own hippy satanist leadership as usual and then they will say (DONT YOU REMEMBER HOW BAD IT WAS DURING THE BAD YEARS?) and people will be like YEAH WE DONT WANT THAT AGAIN, and swallow whatever crap they really wanted you to swallow ALL ALONG.

Chairman Meow  Wrote:

I'd like to know more about the string, please.

haha made me laugh! When I mentioned the string I imagined a white string attached to a stick with a fuzzy bit on the end of the string BUT I'd become concerned the fuzz might come off so I'd prefer using a string that doesn't have the fuzzy part BUT THE GOVERNMENT USES THE FUZZY STRING BECAUSE THEY DONT CARE ABOUT THE SAFETY OF CATS!

D-port  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Zionism has taken a life on of its own that is distinct from being Jewish, Zionism is a National Socialist (Nazi) like political ideology, and it is bad for Judaism and the Jewish people now because of the impression it gives through its atrocious acts.

Zionism is support for the state of Israel, and that is all. Nothing supposed "nazi" about it.

The Muslims were actually allied with the real ww2 Nazis and continue to attack the Jewish people who the hate even more for simply living in the Middle East.

If the Jews want to live there or anywhere else they can do so. And if the Muslims do not like it we do not need the intolerant Muslim in the West.

D-port

Nazi means National Socialist. The National Socialists of Germany were saying they wanted "Germany for the Germans" and wanted more "Living Space" and thus resemble the Religious Nationalism and Socialism towards Jewish people in Israel. The Nazi party pushed the Jewish ethnic people into ghettos like the Palestinians have been pushed into ghettos. There are very many similarities with National Socialism and Radical Zionism.

No, Zionism is not simply "support for the state of Israel" anymore, because there are very many people who agree that Israel will stay as a nation controlled by the Jewish people, but do not support radical Zionism which seems to propose that the land due to ancient rights can rightfully be taken from poverty stricken people who have been living there since before before 1948. It is like someone coming to your current home and saying 3000 years ago my Ancestral Grandfather (supposedly) lived here, and this land is all mine, and then kicks you out of your home and threatens to kill you. That is oppression and villainy, try to empathize and think how it would be if someone tried that to you.

Also to say "muslims were allied" is a generalization, and quite silly to say.

You may be unfamiliar with the Fascist Italians treatment of people in parts of Africa and the muslims who fought them. Just because Germany went to the Bosnians and tried to befriend them and recruit them into SS doesn't mean all muslims were allied with the Axis, many were fighting them, many were muslims in the British army opposed to Nazism. You need to educate yourself, the Zionist propaganda and Government tries to suppress education and promote its agenda to keep the people (like yourself perhaps) in the dark about a great many things.

The muslims and the Jews had for centuries and long stretches of time lived in peace with each other, even before 1948. It is a lie told by the Zionists that there was always hostility, and they hope to wipe the record of the truth that there was mostly peace until after 1948.

You said "If the Jews want to live there or anywhere else they can do so. And if the Muslims do not like it we do not need the intolerant Muslim in the West."

This is how the Jews were expelled from Spain, don't fall into hypocrisy. The muslims have the right to live anywhere else just like the Jews do, no matter what their opinions are, because Jews and Muslims are both human beings, but it is wrong to support the mass murder of civilians which is what Israel has been doing, throwing phosphorous bombs and attacking with helicopters and terrorizing villagers.

Please try to wake up a bit about Zionism, it is not wrong to say that the Israeli people can live there now, but it is wrong to support the horrific behavior of the radical Zionist government.

Post: #3925

The Corporate War Profiteering Military Industrial Complex and their religion of heartless murder and greed are the single most violent and dangerous religion in the world.

Religion in this sense means beliefs + practices based on those beliefs.

The Military Industrial philosophy is SICK, and the practices that derive from the sick sociopathic beliefs are genocidal towards the whole human race.

If ANY religion should be abolished, it is the vile religion of the Military Industrial Complex and their Corporatist War Profiteering Overlords and the Banksters who coordinate and fund them!

Unfortunately, any revolutionary effort will be undermined through infiltration by the bad guys (who are experts at infiltration and conquering organizations from within) and the "revolution" will end being controlled by the same jerks as before but they will sell it to the masses that "change" has occurred when things will only be working in their favor.

This basically make sit practically impossible to fight them in any way. The only way to spread INFORMATION and TRUTH (not necessarily about them, but just generally knowledge and insight about everything, education, because they want to keep people dumb and ignorant of the past and the present).

Then at least the sheepish people of the world though herded and enslaved will be cognizant of it, and however painful that might be may decide at least not to be caught in the media game of lying and fooling people to participate, but rather will focus on their own lives and "properties" and families, and show love to their loved ones and care for their children and make their little microcosms and direct environments fruitful and peaceful.

Israel will succeed if they attack in murdering many civilians and damaging Iran and its people greatly.

If Iran completes a nuclear energy facility Israel will sabotage it creating a Chernobyl event.

If Israel/America/Britain is delayed too much in their war efforts they will create a false flag fake nuke event somewhere and blame it on Iran.

Iran is basically between IRAQ AND A HARD PLACE (Afghanistan).

The plan to attack Iran has been in the works for a very long time, that is why Iraq and Afghanistan were taken in order to surround Iran from both sides (check map).

This is also about the rape of natural resources and the theft of Iranian oil and the construction of a massive pipeline to connect Afghanistan's pipeline with Iraq's and for America/Britain to become the Oil Kings of the world.

Spank The Monkey  Wrote:

So how much do you get paid by the Muslim Brotherhood and the Iranian Goverment?

I don't get paid by anyone, I make no money from these posts, do you get paid to post by Zionist Israel? Feel free to send over any info that will be useful for me to get hired by Israel to shill for them, thanks.

I just don't like civilians getting mass murdered by war hungry Bush types. You haven't seen enough blood and suffering yet? Perhaps if you're getting paid and have no personal ethics, it seems alright to support mass murder and bloodshed, the killing and burning and amputation of civilians, men, women, children, animals.

Yeah?

Post: #3926

Sitting Duck  Wrote:

It's hard not to notice the amount of Youtube videos promoting either Evolution or Intelligent Design. Usually the titles of the videos are inflammatory - "Creationist Gets Destroyed!!" - followed by a overwhelming support of likes/dislikes and a tirade of posts that end up with ad-hominid attacks. Both parties are guilty of this. My question is, do you honestly debate (I use that term lightly) to hear the other persons story or self-propagandize?

I don't personally involve myself with the debate on evolution and intelligent design because I don't find a proper concept of God to be contrary to evolution or science. In other words, the debate seems stupid and arbitrary to me, and I support anyone who speaks the truth rather than spreads lies, thus I trust more in the people who present carefully studied scientific information than those who interpret the Bible in a strict(ly stupid) way and thus denigrate not only themselves but the religion and religions similar to it by making (other ignorant) people think that all religion is contrary to science.

Eagle man  Wrote:

How about the USA being offended that Muslim radicals offed our ambassador and Navy Seals?
Keep pushing us around, you'll see what happens

Are you, as the incarnation of America and perhaps the representation of the Holy Western World, feeling as though you're the victim being "pushed around" by some big bad Islamic bully? Look around the world and see who is being
"pushed around". The muslims of Iraq, the muslims of Afghanistan, the muslims of France, the muslims of Palestine the muslims around the world are being constantly denigrated and insulted, all over the internet, and then to top it off are also being bombed. Take the word muslim away from them and they are just human beings, and even if you think they are sub human animals, do you support the massacre of animals? Do you think its right to be terrorized by planes dropping bombs and American soldiers armed to the teeth with guns breaking into your house and throwing you down on the floor?

The Evil AC  Wrote:

I am being pushed around by every god damned religion
In my eyes they are all lies meant to oppress and manipulate
I can not live my life free of religion, I have no choice, there are f*cked up people in every religion, who will kill you because they fell its the right thing to do, or their god saith so, religion is a disease and there is no cure other then system reset, every religion is guilty. they all need to be done away with, it is time for our species to evolve so that we might stand a chance against the test of time, as long as we are focused on bullshit ancient fiction we will never survive

I don't give a hoot about this religion or that religion, I understand that underneath these cultures and religions there are people who are being murdered with American tax funded bombs from drone planes, so I can't really sympathize with people seeing them as the bully, when they are the oppressed and massacred. Its completely twisted to see it the other way around and not sympathize with them just because they have a religion.

Religions are simply beliefs and practices, and are usually highly intermingled with local cultures. To say "all religion needs to be done away with" and supporting the mass murder of people for their religion or having religions is just as fanatic as killing people religiously.

The right move to make is to understand that even if people are ignorant and need to be educated, the right method is not to support the bombing of their families and the murder of their children for goodness sakes! That is exactly what happens in the Bible, where the Amelekites are mass murdered (man, woman, child, suckling infant baby, and animals because of some offense some party of them supposedly made, and the Canaanites too and others were supposed to be slaughtered for having cultural religions that differed from the beliefs of the group killing them, the same is the case for fanatical atheists who want to massively bomb and murder people for their beliefs, there is no difference.)

Your job should be to EDUCATE people, not to threaten them. Hopefully you agree that teaching and spreading the truth and education will help people evolve and lead them out of any badness. If you imagine yourself as being bullied, and fuel yourself with angry thoughts, you'll only end up supporting a cycle of hate and murder.

Frodgers  Wrote:

Yet that story is out there and people still want to believe that every single man, woman and child who follow Islam is coming to get us with dreadful sharia laws and nukes...sheesh...they are damn terrified atm , that we are all going to bomb the blue blazes out of them

And somehow, ever since the Satanic Verses book, muslims are always the first to hear about every obscure movie, picture, and book regarding muslims? NAY, its just the media promoting whatever they want to promote and saying whatever they want to say. They can shove it. The OP, if you're a genuine person, you gotta wake up to the lies (this is a conspiracy forum) the media is telling you about everything. THEY WANT TO KEEP YOU DUMB, IT ISN'T JUST RELIGION TRYING TO KEEP YOU DUMB, ITS THE MEDIA ESPECIALLY TRYING TO KEEP YOU DUMB. THE INTERNET IS A GREAT SOURCE TO USE TO EDUCATE YOURSELF (like wikipedia and other places) go and DEVOUR information like I do, scour sources, read like a b*tch who knows how to read, and enlighten yourself about EVERYTHING.

You'll see that the media is twisting and lying and tricking people, that they are an evil propaganda machine, that the majority of muslims are completely out of touch with the world news and are not responsible for any of this stuff, that agents are being used under the guise of "muslims" and "terrorists" to do the tricky bidding of the EVIL BANKSTER INTERNATIONALIST CHESS PLAYERS MANIPULATING THE WORLD SCENE, GOVERNMENTS, POLICIES, AND YOUR MIND THROUGH THE MEDIA AND CONTROL OF POLITICAL LEADERS, DON'T BE DECEIVED!

Frodgers  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Frodgers  Wrote:

They are not offended, they are just as mystified as the rest of us...dont believe your own gubmint

The people on this website give the impression by their posts that they just swallow everything the media invents to shove into their eyes and ears.

Why is that, this is supposed to be a conspiracy site...we all know how it really works.

Dont we...?

I would hope so, but that is not the impression the majority of posts make. It used to be that way though in the early days of this site before the various GLP mass influxes that have plagued it ever since and brought the quality of the whole site down comparatively. Maybe some or all are shills and agents, but maybe some are genuinely ignorant and refuse to learn.

Frodgers  Wrote:

Yet that story is out there and people still want to believe that every single man, woman and child who follow Islam is coming to get us with dreadful sharia laws and nukes...sheesh...they are damn terrified atm , that we are all going to bomb the blue blazes out of them

I'd be really scared if I was in those countries, not of the locals, but of the freaking Americans and their NATO coming and manipulating and bombing and destroying and faking terrorism like they did in OPERATION GLADIO LOOK IT UP EVERYONE IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN FALSE FLAG IT WAS PERFORMED BY NATO IN ITALY.

The Evil AC  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Religions are simply beliefs and practices, and are usually highly intermingled with local cultures. To say "all religion needs to be done away with" and supporting the mass murder of people for their religion or having religions is just as fanatic as killing people religiously.

When i said religion needs done away with i did not mean kill anyone.....
that is like become the evil you protest....
I am saying religion needs to be done away with as in evolved out of. educating people with common sense can cure some of that, but there are those who do not want to accept or believe anything else and will continue to instill that into their children their backwards beliefs. and thus the cycle continues, I see no end to it in my life time, so that is very depressing

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Your job should be to EDUCATE people, not to threaten them. Hopefully you agree that teaching and spreading the truth and education will help people evolve and lead them out of any badness. If you imagine yourself as being bullied, and fuel yourself with angry thoughts, you'll only end up supporting a cycle of hate and murder.

I support no compliance, I try my hardest to ignore it all, those that i become acquainted with i try to share my reasoning and hopefully plant a seed of common sense, I do not hate these people because of their beliefs, I hate that i live in a world where people fight over such bullshit, ignorance is not innocence, & blind faith is poison


I

I try to do the same, I've found the only way to deal with people is to peacefully offer them information and if they reject it then that is to their own detriment. I believe if enough people pick up the habit of discovering and spreading the truth, the world will become a better place. The TV makes the world seem like a horrible place all over, but for the most part nothing that bad is happening. Most people are just eating, sleeping, having sex, and working to make money to buy food and shelter themselves and survive. Religion plays a small part in the ultimate lives of people, as most of us are sleeping for the majority of time, then eating, and doing other things. For a devout muslim, Islam plays the role 5 times a day where they take a break to perform a meditative exercise, which is really nobodies concern but their own, and when they are done they return to work or whatever they were doing.

What you can also do is try to understand religions, and even manipulate them to forms that are more palatable and acceptable to you and more in accord with what you believe to be the truth rather than rejecting them outright as total falsehood. That is what I do, as I see in myth in religion the important grains of logically reasoned truths that can be used to help people within the constructs of their religion to attain more peace and a nearness to the (appearance of) of what actual in the world.

Most muslims for example are peaceful, they have never killed, nor will they be killed, they work for food and they sleep and they dream like others humans. The violent people in the world are a small minority. One of the biggest violent groups in the world are the US MILITARY, and AIRFORCE the BRITISH SAS and the RUSSIAN MILITARY, and the ISRAELI MILITARY, these are large groups of armed people trained to murder and kill and have been doing so regularly now for a long time. These are the real violent people of the world, who go around slaughtering people and tearing their bodies apart with bombs and bullets, slashing their children and causing endless pain in the world.

The religious fanatics of the world are a TINY MINORITY compared to the MOST ACTIVE AND AGGRESSIVE MILITARIES OF THE WORLD (which belong to largely SECULAR NON RELIGIOUS GOVERNMENTS).

Even among terrorists, if you look up the pie chart statistics you will see religious terrorists are a tiny percentage and the majority of terrorist attacks are by secular groups for political reasons (Latin terrorists being a huge number compared to the tiny Muslim, Christian, and Jewish terrorist populations based on supposed attacks, many of which are also likely fake to promote the ends of secular propagandists and the military war machines of secular nations like America).

In other words, religion isn't the problem anymore, but an insane militaristic government and their friends out of control causing chaos around and intrigue around the world has LONG BEEN THE PROBLEM SINCE THE (continuing) IMPERIALIST AGE.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

how about I am offended.

I am offended I am forced to live in a time with a bunch of animals and mentally challenged people who have an affect on my life.

People (or maybe it is just you?) keep calling other humans being (namely muslims) ANIMALS. That is called DEHUMANIZATION. It is an important first step to distance oneself from a people in order to make it easier to support their mass murder.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

seperation and distancing is called evolution. The kingdom of species on earth have been splitting away physically since the beginning. It's just so natural to tell distinct differences in others and assess a position of dominance or submission in response to those differences.

The development of the field of psychology, as well as propaganda, as being later developments in scientific thinking, which is part of human evolution, have noticed that dehumanization is a component that leads to inhumane acts towards the dehumanized.

The Evil AC  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

I try to do the same,..................

I am guessing you have read some Joseph Campbell?

Not really, though I've seen at least parts of the documentary with George Lucas, I do like groups that try to talk about the sameness or similarities between religions, but I don't agree with some of the ways Joseph Campbell has described various Hindu myths which he focused on at times. He may have been familiar with their deeper meanings, but he may also have taken a somewhat less informed view of them as representing truths which were more mystical seeming than they needed to be. In other words, the most important thing in relation to telling myths to people isn't always the specific stylistic elements in the narrative (which are usually poetic symbolism, as Joseph Campbell probably understood), but the key to understanding myths is simply to translate the words for what they mean, especially the names, and for the most part it didn't appear that Joseph Campbell was focused on that approach of explanation (instead his idea was to notice the character traits and how they repeat in stories around the world rather than saying what those characters names meant and what the stories were actually about which I feel is the most important factor). For example, how a certain word left transliterated but untranslated as a name would (if translated) inform the reader that the "sea" or the "river" or the "kingdom" or the "sky" or the "sun" or the "moon" are being talked about rather than trying to make them out to be literally like the poetic symbolism in the stories (many people think that the ancients believed in a bunch of humanoid figure sin the sky and under the Earth, but they very likely did not literally believe in such things, but had a habit of writing entertaining and informative poetically symbolic stories in which natural things they were all familiar with are described in anthropomorphic ways, yet the content was often related to actual natural events, theories, and science in many cases).

So what people need to do when approaching religions and myths, is to study them in depth, and learn what was actually being talked about by translating the names. Even a ton of meaning from the Bible is lost by not translating the meanings of the names and not examining the roots of the words (which gives a tremendous amount of extra information lost of english readers in most translations).

That is also why, when I approach scriptures, I study their original languages and carefully transcribe the words involved to understand what is actually probably being said or implied.

Thus, by carefully studying myths and religions, I've seen that they are not completely absurd or ridiculous in the way uninformed people view them (both religious and non-religious people who lack in-depth knowledge about religions), but they are actually dealing with or attempting to deal with aspects of truth and reality in many cases and refer to actual events either natural or historical if not allegorical in order to give some knowledge or wisdom (often which is good even by the standards of today).

Then there are also lies, and the lies can be unearthed by careful study of other sciences, and archeology as well, though even the lies probably have a reason or a basis besides being just flatly invented out of nowhere.

In other words, I've found that a general interpretation of Judaism and Christianity, and Islam and Hinduism, and every religion around the world and all the cultural religions pretty much all said the same things, had the same kind of worship, believed in the same concept of the Ultimate God, attempted to speak of scientific things, and were mostly if not entirely accurate and very often highly logical and reasonable.

So the two sources of evil today are the manipulators who are fearless due to their power and arrogance (the banksters and governments) and the people who do not educate themselves in everything, which will lead them not to reject their religions, but will only give them more strength to combat the lies told by the manipulators.

I've visited and read lots of hateful stuff about Islam that nobody ever hears about or cares about, so the media is totally promoting this movie and this apparent "protest" against it. Why don't they protest against the tons of Islamic hate websites, hate films, hate videos, etc? They do? No they don't. The media is just telling everyone what to think.

The majority of muslims don't have or don't use the internet, the internet is not widely penetrated in the "muslim world".

The majority of muslims don't take time out of their day to go and stand in the sun and protest things.

The majority of muslims don't sit all day scanning newspapers and news articles to find some news about an obscure film that speaks of muslims hatefully.

If they had the internet, they would find numerous popular websites that blatantly say horrific things about Islam constantly, yet nobody seems to protest that, nor does the news mention such things?

Instead "Basseley Nakoula Basseley Nakoula Basseley Nakoula Basseley Nakoula" a supposed criminal makes a movie and it becomes world news? LOL WILL YOU PEOPLE SWALLOW ANYTHING? THATS THE NAME OF THE SHOW YOU'RE ON RIGHT NOW!

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I find the whole thing suspicious. So this guy goes to all this trouble to MAKE A FILM (not an easy or cheap undertaking) to fake that he is Jewish/Israeli, yet the AP can get his cell phone number and interview him? Yeah, right.

Yup, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula aka ‘Sam Bacile” raised $5 million dollars for his like "movie" as soon as he got out of jail without any references in film industry whatsoever - that sounds totally plausible...

And all those synchronized "public outrages" all over the ME and EU were entirely spontaneous...

And Santa is for real.

lol yeah, its so ridiculous, COME ON. What a joke!

LoP Guest  Wrote:

the people killing other people are animals. I am not calling muslims in general animals, I am calling them mentally challenged. along with the other religious fanatic who where a internet film in another country would spark a riot.

Are the US Military and Government Animals? They regularly hold executions throughout the USA, and also bomb and kill people around the world. Does that make them animals too in your opinion? Or is it that it doesn't count when the USA kills thousands upon thousands of people, but when some rioters supposedly kill some people it is the act of animals, while when educated and well armed governments kill thousands (even of their own citizens, like acts by the police) it is not the act of animals?

Well you're right, such things would not be the act of animals so much as the act of butchers, which is what the Corporatist Bankster controlled US government and its allies are.

The Evil AC  Wrote:

Quote:14 September 2012

An Egyptian Saddam Hussein lookalike claims an Iraqi gang tried to kidnap him and force him to make a pornographic film impersonating the late dictator.

Mohamed Bishr, who comes from Alexandria, said the group hoped to sell their video as exclusive erotic footage of the former leader. He claims the gang beat him severely when he refused to go along with the plan, despite being offered $333,000 (£205,000).

Last weekend, he was leapt on while en route to a cafe in Alexandria by three men in black suits who tried to bundle him into a vehicle.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...z26RcnU6pA

Has this happened AGAIN!

Quote:Saddam 'double' escapes Alexandria porn kidnap gang, again

October 8th 2011

An Egyptian man was severely beaten after an Iraqi gang tried to kidnap and force him to film pornographic videos because of his astonishing resemblance to former Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein.

Mohamed Bishr says he was on his way on Sunday to a café in the bustling downtown area of Egypt's second city of Alexandria when three men wearing black suits tried to force him into the back of a van.

"The three men, who had guns hanging from their belts, forced me out of my car and shoved me into a van, hitting my head," Bishr, a devout Muslim, told Ahram's Arabic portal from his hospital bed.

The incident was short but traumatic. Bishr said the last thing he remembers was the men yelling at each other, and then throwing him out of the van where he hit his face on the pavement.

Passers-by quickly gathered around but were too afraid to apprehend the apparently armed kidnappers.

Bishr's son, Mahmoud, said that his father had previously met with a group of unidentified people -- who spoke Arabic in an Iraqi or Syrian dialect -- and had been offered LE2 million pounds (US$333,000) to impersonate the late dictator in a pornographic video. Bishr refused.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/23559.aspx

Same story from October 2011

Is the Daily Mail regurgitating old news?

Or is this a "hidden" message that involves the October 2011 "Saudi Diplomat Assassination Plot"??



Very interesting...

As for the story itself...

Fake old stories being recycled and circulated by the Daily Mail

Richard Eldritch  Wrote:

I think that an age of enlightenment is coming to Islam. Many muslims want no part of these totally over the top savages baying for the blood of any Westener. Even the Germans embassy is now under attack. I hopefull that those muslims that despise these over reactions will come on side abit more and strike a spark under Reasonablist Islam.
We going to need them. The middle east needs them. There will be no place in this world for Zealotry and Murder in the name of any God.
" Often does good grow in evils despite."- JRR TOLKEIN

Good post. I think the fanatics are already a minority, but somehow the passive muslims who are the majority need to more actively shun and subdue people like that.

The tradition of storming Embassies is more in the mode of acts of liberation against perceived (or real) forces of oppression and Imperialism, and less to do with Islam specifically, though Islam does give some motivation to disenfranchised people who feel oppressed. The real narrative of the middle east and Africa is one of hearing about Imperialist crimes and largely feeling averse to the cultures that come packed with Imperialism, though there was a time where modernists were spread through the muslim world, in many cases they were not appropriately supported by the western countries while secret subversions gained more favor and in some cases the West supported uprising of more radical and ignorant elements. Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and other countries in the muslim world had periods where their leaders and policies and people were moving strongly towards modernism and these movements were not favorably supported by the west and were even suppressed at times (if you carefully look at the history of the Middle East and North Africa as well as Iran and Pakistan).

Many of these nations weren't even nations until very recently, and much of the world changed within the 19th and 20th century where things were vastly different just prior in the political scheme of things.

In any case, since the majority of muslims are already quite peaceful and peaceful minded people, and the minority are radicals who the muslims at large mostly disapprove of but in some cases find them heroic for giving the finger to the West who are almost universally disliked by muslims due to their oppressive seeming policies towards muslim countries (muslims tend to dislike when other muslims are killed, such as in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan, though they at the same time largely don't support terrorism, they also believe that there are many lies circulated and that terrorism is used as an excuse to mass murder muslims which makes them for the most part dislike the Western nations that might seem to support that kind of behavior).

Islam has a strong anti-imperialist theme that runs through it which is seen by Westerners as an "anti-west" theme, and in some senses it is, but it is much more importantly fueled by the narrative of Africa and the Middle East than anything else, a narrative of Imperial Oppression and interference that has been around for the last century and beyond.

The only way to deal with muslims is to support moderate governments, increase education, and promote interpretations of the Qur'an and hadiths that are moderate and sensible, encouraging muslims to engage in science again (by informing them of Islamic heritage in such fields) and basically making the muslims feel independent and empowered rather than ugly and animalistic (thus cutting off all communications and only encouraging ignorance and anger to perpetrate the various nations).

Muslims should control their own resources and their own nations, and western countries should basically keep their nose and news out of those countries for the most part just like Mongolia is largely ignored (probably since it lacks anything crucial that corporations powers might lick their lips about) but anyway by vastly supporting and promoting moderate muslims, it will pressure and convince the other kinds of muslims to join the fold and update their methods. Moderate should not mean PASSIVE, but rather active and intelligent muslims WHO DO NOT DISPARAGE OR DISREGARD THE QUR'AN OR EVEN THE HADITHS, but rather promote it in such a way as to make everyone aware that the radicals are a minority (and they are indeed a VERY TINY MINORITY, but the news makes them seem like ALL MUSLIMS).

There is not much individual muslims can do to stop a random and secluded radical party that is also violent from making attacks. What one can do is not alienate the rest of muslims because of such acts, and instead support governments who will prosecute against criminals who do such things.

It isn't hard, but there is an impression forming among conspiracy theorists that the crazies are actually supported behind the scenes by the war mongering western governments like America and that there are natural resource interests among other things behind such public events.

If everyone in the world was muslim, the people who attack people would just be considered violent brigands and criminals, which is what they are even now. Islam should not be their namesake. The promotion of the evils of Islam and the hate many show towards muslims only further alienates the majority of normal muslims from finding it comfortable to integrate into the west, and that leaves them in a strange middle position where they don't agree with extremists and are despised (because of extremists) by many in the west, so who can they go to for friendship? This leads them to mainly stay around their own family units and for the most part stay out of politics to avoid stress.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Until all these f*cking evil superstitions/religions drop their f*cking threats of death, hell, beheadings, etc., if the rest of them don't BELIEVE as they do, then f*ck YEAH, I support the massacre of f*cking animals, dumb ass f*cking superstition animals, with threats, yeah they will DIE!

The desire to mass murder people might make you worse than an animal. Do you really think that all muslims want to behead you? If they so desired (since the population is so large) they could massacre many people before being killed off by technologically advanced weapons, but most muslims are peaceful, and just a few people promoted by the news media are radical, just like there are small minorities of insane radical Christians.

Most people are not sitting around wishing for your death as you might imagine, most people are worried about their own families and their food and jobs.

Meanwhile, by showing so much hate towards muslims and wanting them to be massacred and thinking of them as animals, the muslims feel cut off and alienated from communicating to such people and it only makes them feel more hostile.

The disease is basically spreading because of the closed mindedness of hate and bigotry that makes the mainstream muslim voice unheard and the majority cut off, while the minority gets the loudspeaker through the news promoting them constantly, increasing the hate of the west towards all muslims.

Galaxy  Wrote:

If we stop provoking/invading them, then they will be more tolerant to us.

I'm kind of thinking that might work a bit. If the western powers just get out of those places (they can't because they want to rape the natural resources), while secretly funding and supporting moderate and modernist parties (very, very easy to do, but the Western powers DO NOT want to do this in actuality, since its easier to create troubles and then have "military interventions" and overthrow people and suck up all the natural resources instead while sneaking out of paying fees that a normal government would want, and would likely reject since they would want to profit from their natural resources and not allow a foreign nation to profit instead, in other words the western governments use the chaos they help fuel at times for their own benefit), then there would be peace.

The news should basically shut up about muslims and stop instigating and alienating them, creating hate towards them, they should make immigration into western countries difficult to reduce immigration stresses while helping to educate and modernize the people who are already there, while not alienating them by shoving them into ghettos, and thats basically it.

After a few years, people will totally forget about muslims in the Western world, terrorists should not be given the media attention they so widely crave, making terrorism pointless, moderates and modernists should be funded and supported all secretly while the radicals should have all their support pulled and their funding cut off.

Today I've repeatedly seen people referring to muslims as "animals" mainly and kind of implying or threatening (as is usual) that they should be killed. This is the kind of stuff that is said all over the internet every day, especially for the last 10 years basically since 9/11. Even when there is little news of muslims causing trouble in the world (a subject the media disproportionately promotes while not giving attention to other similar things regarding other kinds of people, and also associating the name of the religion with criminals while not doing the same when others are mentioned, like nobody hears about a murderer who is Christian as a "Christian murderer"), the hate propaganda fills the internet, and will likely never stop until this insane modern agenda of screwing with foreign countries ends while demonizing them endlessly ends.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

What does it say in their bullshit dogma? Them asshole christians are just as horrible, they threaten me with eternal damnation in hell, now damn nice is THAT?

If your dogma contains threats and other nasty comments about those that won't be like you, then you are evil and need to be f*cking destroyed. If your dogma dis's anyone else that doesn't bow down and convert to your bullshit, yes you must DIE you evil POS!

Why don't you read the Qur'an? Not the Qur'an as interpreted by hate websites, but the Qur'an in a normal english translation? If you read it carefully you'll see it never says anywhere to go and aimlessly behead people just for their religion. It says never to start a conflict or be aggressors, to be peaceful, but gives people the right to defend themselves from attacks. It never says (as my people claim when they attack Islam) to go run around and kill anyone who isn't a muslim. If that was really the belief of muslims, its likely that muslims would've long ago completely killed everyone or been killed off themselves. There is no such teaching in the Qur'an. It says to leave people alone "your religion to you, my religion to me". How do I know this? Well it isn't stuff I read on muslim wesbites or hate websites, I actually read the religious scripture called the Qur'an, and even the Persian traditions known as the hadiths. The hadiths don't wish hell on people, in fact they basically say that a person with even an atom of good in them will go to paradise, while the Qur'an says no injustice will be done to anyone, despite their religion, but people will be judged based on their goodness towards others.

The Qur'an also says there is no compulsion in religion, nobody can or should be forced to convert.

You would know all these things if you actually read it, rather than being reactionary and just imagining things about it or basing your understanding on what people (muslim or otherwise) say. You gotta go to the sources, study everything in detail, don't kid yourself.

I think the constitution is very important, in the constitution and other founding documents it understands and supports the need to protect minorities from harassment and attack, and it supports freedom of religion too, but it does not tell people they can harass and instigate people beyond reason under the guise of "free speech" when it is really "inflammatory speech" intended to create hate and promote violence.

For example, that is what used to happen in America in some places against African Americans (and still does).

LoP Guest  Wrote:

You're a superstitious imbecile. That mumble jumble is a load of manipulative coercion and you know it. Make-believers are full of bull crap and lies. You're all liar liars and you don't even know it.

It's a sad thing huh, to be so damn stupid that you're too stupid to understand just how damn stupid you really are.

Do you know how ridiculous and stupid all these superstitions and made up beliefs are? You unevolved superstitious neanderthals are really starting to irritate the rest of us off.

Why don't you people just knock it off with this crap, huh? You are never going to get any respect from people like me that are beyond burning witches and hanging garlic on our front doors. To us, you are a bunch of damn idiots, all of you spook worshipers are. Gawd, the world would be so much better and peaceful without you all, and that's the damn truth and I wish we could have a chance to prove it.

Say, why don't you all go live in heaven now. I think it's high time.

Are you sure you've "people like me that are beyond burning witches" is an accurate description of yourself based on how you've just typed to me?

What I was trying to explain to you was that the Qur'an doesn't say to go around beheading people. You replied to that by attacking me personally and associating me with superstitious people (and saying other insulting things).

One will not have much of a good influence on religion people by approaching them in disrespectful ways (as you demonstrated with me just now), but instead to use their own framework of thinking to educate them and help them become more highly "evolved" (perhaps like yourself, or even better? If that is possible).

Here is a video someone posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=eptPeSmA37U

LoP Guest  Wrote:

A-Z  Wrote:

islam cannot be bargained with. It can. must and will be destroyed. And the sooner, the better.

There's no talking sense to any of these superstitious clans that infest the planet. We're dealing with the same bone heads that use to burn witches and hang garlic on their front door. Unevolved dopes that are too dumb to recognize how dumb they really are. I don't know what we can do with them except to get rid of them.

Get rid of them? You mean mass murder them? Kind of like burning them as witches? You mentioned "unevolved dopes that are too dumb to recognize how dumb they really are", kind of sounds familiar.

Bicnarok  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

A-Z  Wrote:

islam cannot be bargained with. It can. must and will be destroyed. And the sooner, the better.

Please state your strategy for destroying a concept and religion?

Atom bomb on Mecca and ask "why didn´t allah protect that"

In muslim belief, all events are ultimately the will of Allah. Destruction of Mecca would not stop muslims from facing the direction of the ruins to continue to pray to God.

A vicious plot mass murder people with a nuclear bomb is worth noting though, especially for the kind of sociopathic disregard for human life it would take to put it into action.

pocahontas  Wrote:

NumBurr 1  Wrote:

Just now breaking on fox news...
cars in emabssy on fire and american school...
i will post link when one is available...

that also could be streaming out of universal studios... just sayin'

THIS JUST IN, FOX NEWS INTENDS TO SET AMERICAN MINDS AND HEARTS ON FIRE TO SUPPORT AMERICAN RAPE OF NATURAL RESOURCES IN YET ANOTHER F*CKABLE NATION! MORE AFTER THE TITS, I MEAN WEATHER!

Yep, like in Wag the Dog. Fake crap that can't be verified by anyone, and a lying media that has no scruples about spreading government propaganda around the world.

If anyone ever wondered what it would be like if Nazis ruled the world, this is it.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I┴∀NIW∩˥˥Iʞ  Wrote:

Another Step Closer To A One World Religion: 50 U.S. Churches To Read From The Quran On Sunday

Mohammed told his comtemporaries specifically to not write the Koran down, as it was to be an oral account only.

Some religions put writing above all else

This isn't true. What you must have heard was that Muhammed told followers not to write anything about HIM down, but the Qur'an in all traditions has been considered written within the lifetime of Muhammed, and finally put in its current order (the order of the surahs compiled roughly by size) after his death. Each surah is its own closed thing and was written infront of Muhammed, and the Qur'an mentions it being written as well. So you're telling the tale incorrectly, the tradition states that he said not to write things about him down, but nearly 200 years later Persians decided to collect the oral traditions spread around the muslim world and have them written down (though there is no way to verify their actual truth).

LoP Guest  Wrote:

wrong- the Koran was never wrote down while Muhammed was alive; in fact, 'the' Koran wasn't wrote down til some time after Muhammed died

why ?? because it was remain oral in tradition

In the Beginning was the Word-- the spoken Word

You have no basis to say that. According to the traditions you are misquoting and misunderstanding, the Qur'an was written down within his life and infront of him by a number of people, and finally the surahs that existed in the written form were collected under Uthman and standardized into the current format of the Qur'an.

To say that it was never written at all is baseless, offer up your proof. You can go to the wikipedia site and read the traditions as well. They were not oral only and Muhammed never said not to write it according to the traditions, but Muhammed is supposed to have said not to write anything about him according to what the traditions claim.

You can't say "in fact" because there is nothing "factual" or accurate about what you are saying, offer up your evidence for the claims, show your sources. Go to wikipedia Qur'an or look up the traditions regarding it and you'll see it was written down, and the Qur'an itself refers to its being written by scribes.

Post: #3927

Richard Eldritch  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

SoSayWeAll  Wrote:

What INFURIATES the Muslims the most - and they don't even KNOW this is why they hate everyone so much - is that in America and the rest of the civilized world, even a lazy slacker welfare king lives a better life with riches eclipsing the most a damn Muslim could ever HOPE for, while they work themselves to the bone and live lives not suited for a dog, yet their nations sit atop wealth the likes of which is incomprehensible, ALL of which benefits only the ruling families.

It's simple sour grapes, the WHOLE thing... So instead of overturning their REAL oppressors - their own ruling class - and staging an Arab French revolution to boost the well being of every comman Arab, they consume themselves in hate for US instead.

The path of least resistance - and the least mental effort - of the cultural hot headed lover of conflict.

Nobody sits around hating the US all day, and you seem to know VERY LITTLE about life in the middle east or other muslim countries. The Saudi government was placed by the British, the Shah was also the British placed agent in Iran until he was over thrown by the Islamic student revolution.

I'm afraid he's right. There's little point in bringing britain into this as those events were long before the current generation was born and even then it wasn't like the middle east was a haven of peace. You may also be unaware that Britian wasn't just invading willy nilly. Britain was under attack by barbery pirates during the 18th 19 century.Many Brits and Irish were taken prisoner and sold to slavery so of course fighting started.
The fact is that we scare the shit out of the middle east. We have weapons that can wipe them out from the otherside of the planet which can't feel very good. We live like kings, we don't really do gods anymore, we've peered into the depths of heaven and found no Allahs anywhere, we've pushed gods further and further into the realms of fantasy. All the things they hold to be true have been debunked which is going to make you insecure. Our women have real power, we don't mind gay people, we accept political opposition without wanting them destroyed. Our civil wars and our rationalist awakening was 400 years ago and these blokes are still in lifes nursery. Our tech has given us unimaginable power and they both fear it and are jealous of it. We make them look and feel old fashioned and obsolete culturaly.

It isn't like british and american petrolium and oil companies ceased to exist when a new generation of muslims were born.

The first major war of the USA against a foreign nation was against the Barbary pirates, who were working for the Ottoman Empire.

The Ottoman Empire was for a long time hated by Europe for a variety of reasons, some of which would sound ironically similar to what you believe the muslims hate America for.

In any case, the Ottoman Empire was finally obliterated by Britain and other forces and thus was born the modern Middle East, completely invented national borders suddenly emerged and a divide and conquer rape of natural resources policy was enacted in many places.

Anyone can find this out by reviewing history. I know about the Barbary Corsairs but I appreciate you mentioning them. They can be thought of as the sea police of the Ottoman Empire for certain regions, rather than imagining that they were just some random people. Some britishers even joined them, even the guy who Jack Sparrow from pirates of the carribean might be partially based on.

The "Freedom" of Western women is that men get to gawk at their bodies and judge them for their weight, face, breasts, and buttocks among other things. Women are not "free" in the west (not saying they are "Free" anywhere), they are pressured to "put out" and "suck cock" and have boyfriends who get them drunk and f*ck them and leave them and this is a tale told by many. Such "freedom" is a deception, and women are quite fooled if they think they are truly "free and equal" in the west. That isn't to say they are free anywhere, but the west has its own perverse way of suppressing and oppressing women, degrading them and making them think thats the way they ought to live and be.

In Egypt, as I've communicated with Egyptians and other people from around the world, the description given by the author of the original comment does not at all match the reality in Egypt and other muslim countries. This can easily be discovered by actually going to Egypt or watching a video about it, or reading a modern book about it or its major cities.

To say that western people live like Kings is also a vast exaggeration (lol can't help but wonder if you said it with a smirk). A comparison of a middle class home in a city in Egypt (in all its gaudiness) and one in Britain would make it clear who really lives literally like a "King", yet that is not what is important.

The truth of the matter is, Western people don't live enough like Kings, and that should be the main focus of all Western governments (How to make all Western Citizens live as much like Kings as possible). Also, the women should be made into queens rather than than cattle, viewed for their sexual quality rather than much else about them.

The oil companies and other corporations greedy interest in raping the natural resources of other countries has never ceased since even before the modern age, as a continuation of the Imperialist age (and telling you all this is kind of pointless, since you probably already know it all anyway, but at least others can perk up at the news).

History is not irrelevant, in fact, it provides lots of crucial information about what is going on, the factions involved, the historical and modern interests and what is at stake.

Vlad  Wrote:

We both talk of cruelness of Life!, seen it all
But since leftist seem 2 enjoy it why worry?

Most leftists are chickens I tested em all my Life, so why they fire up Muslims?

Citi was the nicest Girlie ever, but if smelled leftist She on fire
He´s a bright Kid!, will change if money/wife/work so on!

It´s a mental disorder!, even my Imam fear em ok!
They\re like into domination big time, and think Islam is just that

Commies will have a rude awake when discover Islam

"Leftists" have gone far away in the original ideal of a world full of benefit for all, into becoming corrupt propaganda agents (they have been for a long time) but they are little different from the "far right" in fact they are all one team now (it seems) and really control the whole world media with their manipulation (pretending there are two sides who are both puppets and making them fight each other to entertain and distract the masses while making further laws and restrictions which enslave all people and steal from everyone their rights and chances for comfort).

Nazis were "National Socialists" after all, and were not much different than others claiming to be Socialists yet having a true disregard for human life.

They are militant secular atheists who are banksters and corporatists on the international level who control various factions both real and fake and make them plot and fight against each other (though the media just blatantly makes up things and says they happened and everyone believes it cause of staged footage).

They don't believe in God, nor fear any real retribution. What they fear a little is humanity, so they want them all caged like animals by monitoring and extremely strict laws around the world.

They can go to hell, and I hope they will.

I'd like to add so that nobody gets confused, the ideals of socialism (impossible to achieve largely because of corrupt oligarchies always ambitiously becoming the dominant force in such movements), are not bad at all if anyone would be true to them, to help the poor and support the life of people.

The modern international atheistic secular militant internationalist bankster "leftist/rightist" neo nazi zionists are not in the favor of humanity or the people, but deem them as animals that need to be herded and controlled strictly, treated like statistics and starved and killed at will. They do not have any true wish for SOCIAL BENEFITS for anyone, even if they pretend to have the interests of the people in mind.
________

I think its lazy that people just type short haiku crap rather than writing full essays for every post.

Some people with shaved heads might promote brevity, but if a person can't see the genius in crazy long things, they might be missing out on half or a quarter or one fourth of something.

Are you really sure the road "far less traveled" is the "simplistic brevity" road?

Actually, if you look at the majority of posts on LOP and GLP and other forums, and twitter, and blah blah, you'll see that most people online try for "simplistic brevity" and they really only seem like simpletons for it rather than geniuses.

Not to disagree with you, but hopefully you'll spare me for pointing that out.

I know what you mean though, the sages and their 4 words or their 4 letters and their one dirty word might seem wise, but maybe they are just lazy and stupid?

Maybe a person should actually have the guts to read a lengthy thing to train their mind, to practice reading, and even practice writing by typing a longer thing.

I've been listening to something called Cultural Literacy by E.D. Hirsch or something, and back in 1986 or whatever people were becoming VERY STUPID, and today its gotten WAY WORSE.

People not only don't know jack squat, but are barely able to communicate ideas, typing brief little nuggets of wisdom from the void that does nothing to help people keep their minds sharp.

So I think I'm actually helping people who take the time to read my posts, and might even feel encouraged to write longer and longer things FOR THEIR OWN SAKE. The sake of their minds.

Remember in those movies they show people who go to an Island and get stranded start to lose their ability to speak? You have to practice read, thinking, typing, expressing, at length. Its best for you.

I don't agree with trying for zen haikus. I've explained why above.

The way I usually scroll is by holding down the mouse button (the left mouse button) and holding it on the bar on the side (the scroll bar) and then dragging it up or down. Its really fast and precise and effective.

Also another tip people can use on LOP and one that I think is useful (I have it set up this way):

They can go to USER CP on the side, and set the posts per page to the highest possible number.

That way the page count becomes much smaller, and many more posts appear on one page. Combined with the click scroll technique I mentioned above, it becomes really easy to navigate through pages.

If you (or anyone) gets lost on a page and wants to find a post and remembers vaguely some word used you can go to some option in your browser that is like find word on page or something? I use a weird browser so many firefox or whatever is most common doesn't have that but it should have that.

Anyway, then you type in the word you remember and it will take you there or to instances where that word was used!

Cool tips huh?

Thanks again for unbanning me.

ONE MORE TIP!

For all of you people who dislike my posts:

PLEASE, NOW THAT IM SIGNED IN AND UNBANNED, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO BLOCK ME (theres no need to try to get me banned, you can simply block me) and then you won't see my posts anymore, they will totally be invisible and gone! How great is that? Enjoy!

Yes! So my current project, when I'm off LOP, is to write a SUPER BOOK, a book of INTEGRATED KNOWLEDGE. WORDY AS HELL PROBABLY, but it will give all knowledge from the background of history starting with the Universe and then the galaxies and the solar system and then the earth (geology) and then the animals (biology) and then the humanoids and finally going into history following genetic migration and also going all the way into modern history, but at the SAME TIME talking about everything from mathematics or other things in an almost narrative form, and provided just tons and tons of info all at once.

Most people who read it once will forget large portions of what they read probably, but will become familiarized (and thus LITERATE) about a great many number of things, including cursive writing and just about every other thing, all in an integrated way from one book (that I'll try to keep small but very complete and covering just about everything).

This will hopefully give people a grasp in a connective way about a ton of issues (people are very illiterate these days, they can read and write but have trouble connecting things and expressing ideas and this may be in some part due to the fragmentation of education and how things are taught in schools).

Most people wouldn't seek out such a book, so I'll try to find a way to put it on doorsteps like how the Gideons put the Bible in hotel rooms. That is my fantasy anyway, I'll write it at least I hope.

A person with real compassion (not a sociopath) might actually care about people enough to try to share information with them (even repeatedly if needed) in order to educate them.

If everyone deeming themselves wise took the stance that "I won't share my knowledge because it would be showing off" or whatever, then knowledge wouldn't pass on to the next generation, and everyone would be f*cking dumb, and indeed that MAY BE WHAT HAPPENED.

So as egotistical as it may seem, I actually do care about people and children, and I want people to learn and have knowledge and to share with them so they can have opened eyes and ears and high awareness.

The most egotistical or downright evil thing might be to know the truth, to know the path, to have some wisdom and then to look upon your human brother and think "nah, I'm going to keep this to myself, let them suffer in ignorance".

No offense but, before agreeing with what seems like conventional wisdom, you may want to consider what I wrote and explained (how it is important to actually practice language and share knowledge or else everyone gets messed up including the silent sage).

I'll certainly fail to save the world, but if even one person gains even a little information (by finding out something they didn't know before or refreshing their memory as to something they did), I think it is worth the effort.

Now even though I don't believe my efforts will likely have any large influence or possibly any influence at all, what can be said of a person who doesn't even try?

Someone who tries to help people and fails, and someone who sits back and does nothing to help? Are they the same? Perhaps, as tiny ants viewed from miles away. I do believe though, somewhere, that if there is any justice in the Universe, and even if there isn't, that the effort to do good is better than the effort to avoid it.

I'd be delusional if I really thought that I'd convince people who dislike me and pick on me and bully me for no reason that I'm wonderful by typing tons.

Nah, thats not what is going on though. I enjoy getting into typing lots, its exercise.

When a person does exercise, they are practicing and training some skill. In my case, I like to type lots when I'm in the flow of it so that I'm not intimidated by the other projects I have in mind. If I was used to typing only very little, and not able to go wild and type tons, it might become very difficult to write the essays and articles that are important to me.

By having these humorous (to me and perhaps some others) discussions and explaining myself repeatedly, I'm not only practicing the ability to type and think fast, but I'm practicing patience too (which is also important to me). This isn't the usual kind of patience that one might hear of, of just swallowing their pride and keeping silent, but this is the kind of patience that is required for writing tons of material, or explaining things (like one would have to do if they were an educator teaching the same classes again or having to answer questions). So that is why I answer people over and over again with full answers because I want to practice being patient with people and not practice saying "forget it" and walking away which really gives me nothing at all other than maybe some thoughts floating around giving me temporary anxiety. Instead I want to use these opportunities to train myself, training typing, thinking, argument (however stupid I may seem in that respect?), and patience (the patience to repeatedly answer to the same accusations or questions, which may serve as an important skill later on for me).

So yes, I'd be gaining nothing by these arguments, but I gain much more (I think) than the people who argue with me. In my view, I make their silliness useful and beneficial for me (and possibly for those who practice reading by reading my posts).

One quick question, and I like your idea of ninja energy conservation but there might be something important that could be understood (if it is true, and I'll phrase it like a question).

Who has more stamina? A person who practices running or jogging, or a person who never jogs or runs?

When people practice something, they don't lose energy, but they actually build the potential for more exertion of energy. In other words, a person who practices something is not a loser, but a winner (unless they practice something harmful and deteriorating, which you may think my practices are?).

By practicing typing, you gain more stamina for typing, just like practicing running, just like practicing thinking.

By "conserving energy" a person actually bit by bit loses their stamina and their overall energy potential.

You gain more energy by exercising, it helps with overall fitness.

Similarly, when you exert other things like typing ability, argument ability, thinking ability, you gain more stamina in those areas (maybe? No? help me if I'm wrong).

Yep, and then when people get sick of such practices, they lose tolerance for it, and then they can't take it anymore and it can become hard to build up the stamina and patience for it again.

What is happening in the world is a massive dumbing down of people, no longer do people remember things about the world, no longer are people taught things about history or even their own cultures. Everyone, since the invention of the typewriter even, has bit by bit getting more and more staccato and cryptic in their communications. People are barely able to explain their emotions or thoughts, let alone world events or scientific phenomenon. Kids are not taught much, and end up growing up into stupid ignorant adults. That is probably what bad people want, so that they can feed them lies and keep them dumb and enslaved.

Even among academics, things are becoming shorter, and the shorter things become, the more patience people lose because they are practicing less and less with less and less.

So yes, people will reject walls of words, and the message might not reach them, but those who care about themselves, and might try to read something fully, they will gain for it, and it will bless them with increased patience possibly, and the more they practice it the more it will build, and the easier it will become! Like riding a bike, like swimming, like running, like thinking, like speaking, like learning!

The situation is, life is short, and I have no guarantee I'll be reincarnated (I'm not at all suggesting that is what I think you're saying, I'm onto some other topic now).

I want to do something I think is good, and what I think is good is giving people something that can maybe help them, a gift or act of charity. I may be credited for this in some way living or after, or I may not be credited at all, in any case I want to be that person, that person who intends to do much good, if I'm credited or not, so be it. When I look at myself in the mirror, or think of myself, I want to be the person who tries to do something good. What I think is a worthwhile gift, since I don't have much (or any) wealth, is knowledge or rather information.

Information might seem useless and arbitrary to people, especially since everyone will be dead eventually (probably, and the world and the Universe might be irrelevant in the end), but in the time we are living, if we acquire some information we might feel good and also be able to understand things better. This understanding, the ability to read something and know things about it and explain it, and the ability to express ideas regarding something, is called literacy, and literacy is helped by the accumulation of information and connecting dots and stuff.

I feel that an informed person, and a person trained to think, is probably in a better position to see things with a wider understanding due to their larger set or file of background information and that this may benefit them in life, in discussions, and possibly even in attaining things in a life later on (afterlife, not directly due to the information they acquired, but how having that information helped them to speak to people and understand things in the world, and better informed them of their decisions).

If I had great wealth, I would certainly share it with people and work diligently to help those in need (I would hope to anyway), but since I don't have that, the only thing I can try to give people is information and help them to train their thinking abilities (you may be good at that too, you might want to continue helping people as well).

Literacy can bring much help to a persons life I think, and so I believe it a worthy gift a poor person can bestow on another.

Of course, nobody can be forced to drink the water as you say, but providing the water repeatedly puts the blame on the individual if they choose not to drink it.

To make truthful and well sourced and complete information available widely is my dream of charity. Wikipedia has done it largely, but people probably only utilize it for specific things, and nobody goes through every article or even all the relevant articles to learn things thoroughly or refresh their memory. I'm thinking if a person makes a kind of special integrated wiki book that they give to people like how people give people bibles or leave newspapers on doorsteps, some people having it brought to them might read it, and be zapped with a ton of information which will bring light perhaps to many things they didn't know. That feeling of empowerment from knowledge that I imagine they might receive, is really the gift I receive, my recompense, since it brings me great pleasure when someone becomes enlightened on a subject (I don't plan on anyone knowing that I've made this book or whatever, so its not like I'd know if anyone gets happy from knowledge, but I'd hope they do and I believe in some way the goodness might reach me now or later, or at least I'd hope so).

What I'm most concerned about (and I plan on writing some apologies in a short introduction) is that people might deem the presentation of information as condescending or something, so I wanted to explain briefly that if they cross over something they know it doesn't mean that the reader is deemed to be unintelligent or unaware, but that such information is for people who might not know, or to refresh the thinking of someone who does, and also to ensure that they may not have been following an idea that was nearly accurate but not precise. Anyway, its likely that not everyone will be pleased, but the people who will benefit most (from any of my posts, but I mean more particularly any educational works for literacy purposes) are people who by chance or habit are able to be patient with it and go through it all. I actually think patient people often benefit the most from many things, while impatient people might miss out on tons of things (so I don't think its good to endorse or promote the development of impatience, which the internet seems to have done for many people, especially in places with word limitations like twitter or whatever? On twitter people are trained to practice expressing themselves in a very short way, also telephone texting might cause that too).

Yeah, that is what I meant! I thought the acting was very funny. I seemed to like it more than other people though, I mean even people on youtube didn't seem to be commenting on how ridiculous it was. What is sad is many people might think its based on some truth. What is good is many people might become interested in Islam again and research it. What is not good is if people think hate sites don't like, but its great if they really educate themselves.

Statistics showed that conversions to Islam increases after terrorist attacks (blamed on "Islamic Terrorists"), not because people love terrorism, but because they research Islam and after getting past the hate websites (and maybe getting deeper into it) find they have been lied to and that it isn't really a bad religion, so they sometimes convert.

pie  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

That's true, they don't have to. When God's patience runs out, He Himself will take care of the guilty parties. He's the only one qualified to do so. He knows their hearts, he knows their motives, he knows whether or not they'll ever repent of their actions. He's the giver of life and the only one qualified to decide which lives deserve to be snuffed out.

lol, when criminals do horrible crimes and happen to also identify themselves as "christians" they aren't usually called "Christian killer" or whatever. Muslim is always used to refer to terrorists and criminals, even though the religion of Islam does not allow such criminal behavior.

Remember the crusades?

No I don't, I'm not that old, jeez!

Humans will use whatever they can to try to get people to kill people. In what name do animals fight and sometimes kill each other? No, they do it for territory or natural resources, just like human animals. OO AH AH AH.

Magnus74  Wrote:

Description:
Please share your experiences if any of the following applies to you.
A) A bright white light appears in your room while you are asleep or in the hypnagogic or hypnopompic state.
B) The light appears to be sentient or intelligently operated and will change locations in your room.
C) This Light related phenomena accompanies, lucid dreaming, strong dreams or visions, Night Terrors or strong feelings of fear, hostility or tranquility.
My theory is that these interdimensional watchers often interact with us while we are in the sleep stage; alter our normal dream state and can insert information at will- thus programming or re-programming us like machines.
What are your thoughts?

They aren't "interdimensional" they live on Earth in this dimension, there is no evidence of any other dimension or alternative universe or whatever yet no matter what they (these entities) claim.

They are entirely living beings, they are sentient and intelligent (as much as humans) and can appear in different forms. They are made of ionized gas essentially (plasma) and are gaseous looking most of the time, they can expand and contract and seep through small cracks by extending their membranes and they can also accelerate and ignite becoming like a ball of light or other ignited forms when they accelerate their particles otherwise they look like a mist with a kind of "static rain" bouncing around inside that looks like static or rain and those are probably little bits of matter or maybe some particles that have stuck together or something.

They are sensitive to electrical equipment and can influence electrical equipment. They can speak and usually speak whatever language is the common one in the area they were born in and live in and can be recorded using normal devices though they usually speak quietly as in a whisper and also at times some can try to influence people through sub audible whispers. Like if I say "cat" barely audible in your ear you might think of a "cat", but they can't control people or their minds contrary to many stories of possession.

THEY FEED just like us, but they don't eat SOLID MATTER. Just as we are made of solid matter and eat solid matter stuff, they are made of gaseous matter and feed on flammable gasses such as methane and other gasses both natural and artificial.

They hang out at trash piles, grave yards, forests (places with decay for gas release), swamps, and visit bars and gas stations for the alcohol vapors and gas vapors which are all useful as food/fuel which allows them to do these accelerated ignition things and also to travel high in the sky.

The can go to the very border of space way up where oxygen is thin or non existent but eventually need to fly back down to Earth.

THEY ARE EARTH BEINGS, TERRESTRIAL, NOT ALIENS, NOT INTERDIMENSIONAL, and they have existed with humans since humans have been around and humans have written much about them and at times in gestures of friendship poured alcoholic vaporous libations to them or burned offerings for friendship, at times these beings have made contracts with people and their tribes and families.

A racist faction of these beings tries to manipulate world leaders who seek their advice into creating plans and policies that would harm the rest of humanity (though they sell it as being a good and necessary evil). These are the radicals among them, as there are many different factions, the majority do not participate with human activities and like most humans are concerned with their own life, diet, and mating.

They live in forests and can easily be seen using infared cameras but can be seen clearly with the naked eye as well though they usually don't present themselves always (and humans don't usually notice even if they are infront of them because t hey just appear as a mist or smoke sometimes and if they spread out their membrane they become barely visible as a super fine mist, while compressed forms or heavy forms can be completely visible and there are some that even kind of hop in a super compressed "heavy" form though they still aren't truly heavy like we are).

In Islamic thought they are called Jinn, in China they are Shin, in Rome they are Daemons (the Romans said they are made of heavy gasses they called Aer, while the Qur'an said they are made of ionized gas/plasma essential "flame of fire" lightning (which is what the New Testament compares Satan to) is also ionized gas just like flame, but what ionized gas is, is plasma which is also what some of the radicals call themselves such as Sanat Kumaras team "Lords of the Flame").

Post: #3928

FreedomStands  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I never did understand why religion is important.

Beliefs, the assumptions are inevitable for reasoning. You cannot reason without postulate first.

If I understand you correctly, it seems you are saying that religions are beliefs, and beliefs arise from reasoning. I agree, though there can be beliefs that are unreasoned and illogical and thus are likely to be false (untrue and not a model representing reality or what is actual or real).

Agreed. I call it the dead beliefs, superstitions. There must be a reality check for beliefs of ours by their practicing daily.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Post: #3929

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Agreed. I call it the dead beliefs, superstitions. There must be a reality check for beliefs of ours by their practicing daily.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I like when people agree with me! Thanks!
_______
Thanks for making this so I can explain to people the various stages of this MOVIE thing.

There were 3 stages in the production.

All production stages were made by and overseen by an anonymous source, lets call it GOV.

The first stage used US service people and equipment, and was filmed with a slightly higher budget, by a director who had a taste for "sweeping scenes" and their family members or volunteers. It was particularly about the Egyptian Government and was mainly non-offensive.

When submitted to GOV for review, it was seen to not meet the requirements for the planned event.

A second stage of production was put into action, using a different director and pornographic actors (they can be looked up if you're really familiar with porn listings lol) and probably had more complete pornographic scenes if needed as well as non-offensive content.

When GOV reviewed this, they found it satisfactorily offensive, but not in its current form.

Since the first movie about the Pre Uprising Egyptian Government would not make sense to the illiterate American audiences, nor justify any opposition in Egypt (since that is the very government overthrown by the current administration) a decision was made to cut most of that movie out and for a few scenes (possibly the only potentially inflammatory scenes in the whole short film) were used with highly obvious voice over dubbing by a third production team for post production and final GOV cut.

So things were inserted like "Islamic Terrorists" and "Islamic Crimes" to be more generally offensive to Islam than specifically Egypt.

Then the porno cut was put in and showed some parts of scenes while specifying the name of "Muhammed" when it was probably not used in the main production, and even dubbing over the old Jewish womans speech, and then she spreads her legs lol.

Anyway none of this ever reached Muslim or Egyptian audiences by the time it was broadcast all over the news to try to encourage Americans to view it.

The Embassy attacks were staged and coordinated long before anyone ever saw this clip. The attacks were also staged by GOV and funded by anonymous sources we can call INTBANKCORP.

Thus is the tale of this movie.

The name "Sam Bacile" was an invention, and the person photographed is not even necessarily the person they will end up playing the part of "Sam Bacile" in later drama that might be planned.

Sam Bacile may be an anagram for "Blames Cia" and "Islam Mcabe". When typing in "Islam Mcabe" into a search, a book may come up that is about a CIA agent named Mcabe who captured an Egyptian terrorist sneaking into the USA and together they make a Nuclear Bomb to detonate inside America (which may be the next part of this made up narrative, but hopefully not, though there were reports of a missing tub of nuclear material recently which may be some of the back story just in case GOV wants to take this story there).

Stanley Corp, an information dispersal company that has tons of government contracts from a number of departments like the military and homeland security released the video on the internet as NewsPoliticsNow3 and then DarthF3tt (notice the 3).

THE END!!!!!!!

pie  Wrote:

Ban all religion.

Mods, if you oppose this, i'd at least like an explanation.

Our post from earlier, and now i'm not like the CIA, nor am I trying to stir up religious hate, I'm trying to say RELIGION ISNT TO BLAME FOR WAR, ITS USED BY EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE GREEDY FOR NATURAL RESOURCES AND WEALTH:


pie  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

pie  Wrote:

The solution to this is simple.

Ban all religion.

How could you be serious about that? It makes it seem obvious that the real people promoting this fake crap have an agenda to try to make people disgusted with religions.

No, religions aren't the reason. Evil people who want to rape natural resources and rob nations (Americans and their Bankster masters). They are the ones creating the chaos in the world, and have LONG DONE SO.

So you're blatantly ignoring all the killing going on in the either the name of god or allah?

Yes, I'm blatantly ignoring mainstream media propaganda and lies.

Anyone can send a bunch of their agents, masked or unmasked and make them scream ALLAH ALLAH ALLAH while being video taped.

Are you pretending lies can't be told, movies can't be made, and Governments are ultra simplistic and really admit to their secret activities? Then you don't know much about the SAS or CIA or the history of intrigue, espionage, and creating political unrest.

No, people don't kill because of religions (Christianity and Islam both speak out against aggression).

NATURAL RESOURCES, THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CAUSE OF WAR. EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE GREEDY AND POWER HUNGRY USE RELIGION AS AN EXCUSE. BOOTY, WEALTH, TREASURE, LAND, PORTS, TAXATION, TRADE RIGHTS, HIGHWAYS, PIPELINES, MONEY. That is the cause of war, greed.

Greedy nations try to rob and rape poorer nations and keep the wealth from the people, and this is the Corporatist way.

How naive can someone be not to see the obviousness of that in this day and age? It has been going on FOR A LONG TIME, read about the Imperialist Age, the RAPE OF AFRICA, and all the colonies.

COME ON.

The only people who have ever benefited from these "pretext to war" scenarios they stage themselves, are the nasty corporatists, NOT the supposed "muslim terrorists" or "muslim countries". READ ABOUT THE DAMN NATURAL RESOURCES, SORRY FOR SAYING DAMN BUT COME ON!

SUEZ CANAL, TRADE RIGHTS, PIPELINES, DIAMONDS, every war is about ROBBING AND RAPING COUNTRIES, ABOUT WEALTH, ABOUT INSTALLING COMPANIES TO SUCK UP EVERYTHING AND KEEP THE PEOPLE DUMB AND SUBDUED.

Some militant atheist sickos want to mass murder all religious people, they've said so at least. What ignorance and hate, its just like any ignorant bigot retard (not saying you're like that pie, I'm talking about the types who want to kill tons of people who have religions).

pie  Wrote:

Propaganda or not, this shit is going down. Right now.
And these people at the very least believe they are doing the right thing. I will kill in the name of my nonexistent god! I swear!

The Crusades were probably not really about religion, religion was used as an excuse, it was once again about wealth and trade routes.

Nah, most muslims are sitting at home or in their communities, working and thinking of their families. They have nothing to do with any of this embassy stuff. When I say propaganda I mean entirely staged and coordinated events that have nothing to do with God as much as they have to do with secret agents manipulating things and people being coordinated. Anti Imperialism. People don't like their nations being bombed, robbed, and raped of natural resources by big corporations and evil military complexes.

pie  Wrote:

I have no desire to kill anyone. I only have a burning desire to eradicate all religious zealotry.

You're a zealot though, that is the "burning desire" you're talking about.

pie  Wrote:

That may be, i'm not disagreeing with you at all.

But ...

In the larger picture ... this was done in the name of religion. People supported this in the name of religion. People would give their lives ... in the name of religion.

Did the Bolsheviks give their lives in the name of religion? Did the Chinese during the Cultural Revolution?

Please, if you agree with me, then you should also agree it is important to become educated about the real causes of conflict in the world.

The bigger picture isn't religion, religion is the surface lie. The big picture is humanity, animal tendencies, and greed for natural resources and the rapacity of oligarchies like America and Britain and the modern technological powers.

pie  Wrote:

Maybe i should take you for a little walk through Brussels or Antwerp. And these people are very far from these events.
Maybe it would cast some new light on D's edgyness.

Anyway, let's not go down this route, i treat every religion with the same disdain. I am not talking about one in particular.

The premise of erradicating all religion sounds like a good one. It would take away one of the most user-friendly tools to those who run things.

You're also fooling yourself if you think alienated groups of immigrants pressured into ghettos are really "fighting for religion" when they form protective gangs, which also doesn't represent the full muslim or religious demographic of Europe or Brussels or anything at all.

I can show you videos that make it clear the majority of muslims in those places are not radicals, nor are the majority of teenager immigrants all ready to murder Europeans, despite the constant prejudice they are faced with by many and their ghetto life.

Were the Africans in America who were pressured into ghettos also fighting for religion?

Please! With careful study of all these things, maybe you'll see that religion has nothing to do with it. Humans are like this, with religion, or without religion.

There have been secular totally non religious groups that have fought and died for various reasons, was Vietnam a religious war? Come on!

pie  Wrote:

Religion just makes it goddamn easy.
You can have all the democracy in the world. You don't have to poke them with cattle prods or scare them with the death penalty.

All you need is one goddamn badly made blue-keyed movie.

Look, it is flat-out ridiculous to believe that Egyptians in the middle of nowhere were able to immediately coordinate multiple embassy attacks the moment an obscure government made movie popped on the internet when TONS OF HATE MOVIES AND WEBSITES HAVE EXISTED FOR YEARS WITH NO MEDIA ATTENTION AND NO ONE CARING AT ALL. DON'T KID YOURSELF PLEASE, IT HELPS NO ONE.

What religion were the Bolsheviks fighting for? What religion were the Cultural Revolutionaries of China fighting for? What were the Tamil people fighting for? What religion were the Cubans fighting for? What about the Vietnamese, what religion were they fighting for?

If you can't answer, I'll tell you: NO RELIGION, THEY HAD NO RELIGION, THEY WERE ATHEISTS FIGHTING FOR CONTROL OF NATURAL RESOURCES AND NON RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGIES.

pie  Wrote:

You still don't understand what i'm saying.

Religion makes it goddamn easy!

Vietnam was a communist country, as were all others you mentioned before. They were ruled with an iron fist. Disobedience would result in death.

Religion lifts that requirement. People will now WILLINGLY do things like this.

Oh, and about the prejudice in europe? Whitey is the one catching the flak...

Those countries were not yet "Communist" until after those revolutions fought by militant atheists to make the countries "Communist". Then the non religious people FOR NATURAL RESOURCES, attacked other places, just like Japan attacked China, and Russia attacked Afghanistan.

So I'm asking how it was "made difficult" by not having a religion? These were a multitude of totally atheistic movements (Zionism too if one studies its leaders) that were about control of natural resources. THE SAME REASON WHY BUSH WENT AND INVADED IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, EVERYONE CAN SEE IT WAS FOR NATURAL RESOURCES, NOT REALLY FOR RELIGION, THEY JUST LIE ON THE SURFACE (only true dopes, not you hopefully, are fooled by the surface lie and can't see it isn't about religion at all, it is about wealth and suppression of people).

The religions have not actually said to go on killing sprees. Jesus says turn the other cheek, Islam says never to be the aggressor or start wars or conflicts and to forgive and make treaties (but gives the right to self defense, which is a human right).

Disturbed  Wrote:

Definition of ERADICATE
1
: to pull up by the roots
2
: to do away with as completely as if by pulling up by the roots <programs to eradicate illiteracy

Zealot

zeal·ot (zlt)
n.
1.
a. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
b. A fanatically committed person.

So you're saying your ideology should be forced upon everyone. Fines, prison, death if the people reject your ideology? (eradicate remember?)

What's so different about your ideology and lets say someone's fanatical muslim or christian ideology?

None.

Exactly!

pie  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

pie  Wrote:

I have no desire to kill anyone. I only have a burning desire to eradicate all religious zealotry.

You're a zealot though, that is the "burning desire" you're talking about.

And you're just trying to discredit me with wild claims and accusations.

I have heard equally horrible things about your mother you see ... but i'm not really going to tell anyone, i'm going to leave it up to their imaginations so it gets blown WAY out of proportion. Yeees .... this will make them angry and EASY to use as my minions.

Now if only i could unite them all for a common goal ... a common set of beliefs ... hmmm i do wonder.
That would turn them all into sitting ducks!

I wasn't trying to insult you or your mother, I was trying to inform you of the definition of ZEALOT (which Disturbed kindly posted) and showing you that anyone who has a "burning desire to eradicate zealotry" is ALSO likely a ZEALOT since ZEALOTS have "burning desires" to do things usually, nothing to do with religion or insults to you.

pie  Wrote:

Way back when people actually had to cultivate land and such to survive, they were united in communities (villages, cities, etc) and had to work together to survive. This was their common bond.

In more "modern" (if you can call it that) countries, no one usually cares about the problems of others. Unless you can get them to line up in one neat line.

Now what is the easiest way to do this?

A good example was the burqa ban in belgium. Riots everywhere, cars burn, windows smashed. Looting, stealing, stabbing people ... you name it. And for what?
Some anonymous woman decided to be really annoying. Next thing you know, thousands looting in pillaging. When interviewed, most couldn't even explain why they were there ... so why were they? Religious "ideals".

Not "religious ideals". The Government should not have a right to say to a woman what she is not allowed to wear, or force her to expose her face and body if she does not want to expose her face or body, nor should they create lists as a government of what people can and can not wear within reason. To forcibly tear the veil off women is not "freedom" for women, but oppression of women and their right to choose to wear a veil if they so wish to wear one.

pie  Wrote:

Semantics.
Trying to invalidate the entire proposition due to my poor choice of words. We could continue this in french or dutch if you'd like, i'm more proficient in those languages.

I'm informing you (just like D tried to also inform you) that being a zealot against religion is the same as being a religious zealot, they are both a form of zealotry.

pie  Wrote:

Way back when people actually had to cultivate land and such to survive, they were united in communities (villages, cities, etc) and had to work together to survive. This was their common bond.

In more "modern" (if you can call it that) countries, no one usually cares about the problems of others. Unless you can get them to line up in one neat line.

Now what is the easiest way to do this?

A good example was the burqa ban in belgium. Riots everywhere, cars burn, windows smashed. Looting, stealing, stabbing people ... you name it. And for what?
Some anonymous woman decided to be really annoying. Next thing you know, thousands looting in pillaging. When interviewed, most couldn't even explain why they were there ... so why were they? Religious "ideals".

If a worldwide ban on religious freedom, freedom to practice a religion, is made, anyone who is right minded should rise up and fight against oppression and restrictions, the same as there should be freedom to practice religions in religious countries too. It is unfair to say to people that their right to have a religion is revoked.

pie  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

pie  Wrote:

Semantics.
Trying to invalidate the entire proposition due to my poor choice of words. We could continue this in french or dutch if you'd like, i'm more proficient in those languages.

I'm not invalidating anything, I'm informing you (just like D tried to also inform you) that being a zealot against religion is the same as being a religious zealot, they are both a form of zealotry.

Still going at it ...

Ugh, going at what? We're trying to tell you not to be a zealot, because it is in the same mold as being a religious zealot, which you apparently want to eradicate.

pie  Wrote:

Bullshit. You can't wear a tent over your head at work. It's simple as that.
Based on what you're saying, there should be no laws because no one should ever be able to make you do anything.

How does a scarf interfere with working if someone wants to work and wear a scarf?

pie  Wrote:

You are putting this label on me and pushing your own opinion.
I'm simply proposing something and asking for it to be discussed.

Or is my very presence here offending you to such a degree that you feel you need to lash out?

Perhaps language is the barrier here and you are having difficulty seeing that I'm not lashing out at you but trying to point out something ironic to encourage you to tone down your stance since it is the same as the demands of any radical who wants to completely eradicate some form of thinking or group that follows a certain philosophy.

You said you want to eradicate all religious zealotry, and we're saying that is the same as if a religious person said they want to eradicate all atheistic thinking.

pie  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

pie  Wrote:

Bullshit. You can't wear a tent over your head at work. It's simple as that.
Based on what you're saying, there should be no laws because no one should ever be able to make you do anything.

How does a scarf interfere with working if someone wants to work and wear a scarf?

Apples with apples, dear ...

So? Do they look inhibited by their clothing choices? They are able to hold their bag, and its their choice to wear what they want. You want to dictate the national clothing agenda? That isn't cool.

pie  Wrote:

I'm not talking about revoking rights to any beliefs. I'm talking about educating and removing the need for any belief in the flying spaghetti monster. I'm talking about TRUE segregation of state and church (something even the US hasn't got).

This would include some bans, sure. No baptizing before the age of 16 or so for example.
Even in Belgium it is mandated that you register your child at a chapel within four days after it's born.

If a person studies theology, you'll see that nobody is really supposed to believe in anything like a spaghetti monster, what is usually being spoken of is the concept of "Ultimate Reality" and its influence on the Universe and life.

Again, to just accuse religions of things falsely is the same bigotry as a person who could turn and say "all atheists are working for demons". If you try to actually understand the religions (as I've studied them extensively, you can look at my EASY RELIGION IN A NUTSHELL thread), they aren't as absurd as you might think so treating them with prejudice and bigotry isn't much different than them doing the same to people they don't understand.

pie  Wrote:

What i am proposing is to level the playing field for everyone. To suspend prejudice once and for all. Let people come to their own conclusions. This will require a period of conclusions being made for them, but no worse than what is in place now.

If some 18 year old decides that islam fits him/her and wants to be initiated, that's fine. It will very likely be for the right reasons.
Right now, religion is being force fed, and it's creating fanatics everywhere. It's a tool for governments to control the masses.

You can not say a forced national philosophy (which is the same as a national religion) = a fair "leveled playing field" any more than "EVERYONE BEING MUSLIM" = a fair leveled playing field, or "EVERYONE BEING CHRISTIAN" or "EVERYONE BEING COMMUNIST".

pie  Wrote:

Yes, they do.
There was a riot not too long ago about a muslim girl refusing to remove her burqa while she was selling train tickets over the counter, behind glass, in a train station. No one could understand her, and frankly, it's very disrespectful.
If i were to walk around with a motorcycle helmet all day, i'd be asked to remove it at some point too.

According to OTHER BELIEFS, it is disrespectful for men to gawk at and judge women by their faces and bodies. I truly doubt here VEIL was blocking sound to such a degree that the person could not hear them due to the veil. What b*llsh*t. Not you're fault though, just more MEDIA lies, even in Belgium, just like all the propaganda spamming the world today.

pie  Wrote:

A person studying theology would very likely be initiated into a religion for the "right reasons". Something i've stated before.

Do you think the average joe believes in jeebus because of the sense of ultimate reality it would bring him?

...

That is why, rather than BANNING things, people should OPENLY STUDY EVERYTHING. If a person avoids trying to understand religions in detail, they can not understand them, the same as one can not understand philosophy by simply looking at a picture of Nietzsche.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

pie  Wrote:

Ya and and during that time of transition their was MUCH bloodshed spilled in the name of Religious freedom's and rejecting tyranny of corrupt churches... Do you think the transition between the churches power and the state power was "peaceful" non-violent they just "convinced" the other side too "come-around" Ya.... No way

No man... You are MISS-directing, you know Exactly what the f*ck I'm talking about. The Church LOST power over time, not GAINED it. How do you think the people gained the power that the church once held onto so dearly? Anti-religious Militants, that's who. Those who would seek to impose THEIR will onto others just as Religious zealots and extremists have been known too... Those who have a extreme dissenting view of thing's like (Religion or Religious institutions) Have been known too cause their own problems too!

yeah

pie  Wrote:

But this is exactly what is happening worldwide. People aren't part of some religion because they made a well thought-out, lucid choice on joining. They are part of a religion because mom and dad made them. They have no idea of what it's all about anyway. And then some figure comes and professes that religion ABC has offended their religion, XYZ and that they must now declare holy war on them and blow shit up.

The solution isn't banning religion, but educating people in detail about all things including history and religion as precisely as possible. If you ban religion, many will kill and die (and the atheists are likely to be slaughtered as well unless they hide), but if you educate people then nobody has to die over clean and clear precise education about all other religions and philosophies.

Misrepresenting religions as "spaghetti monster believers" is not going to save anyone from religion other than making then tricking them into believing something that is false.

pie  Wrote:

And this bloodshed was initiated by whom? Church death squads were set up to "enforce belief" and "erradicate opposition". It is no different from any other group that feels threatened.

It is very similar to what is happening with the arab spring movement worldwide. Right now.

What "church death squads" have been mass murdering people in the world today over oil pipelines?

pie  Wrote:

Do you even know what the burqa represents? I'll turn your own argument around on you and implore you to research female rights activism in the middle east.

Yes, and I'll turn it around on you, by showing you the opinions of female who wish to wear the burqa (not due to marriage, but due to their own ideas about their religion, and for your information some muslims don't wear hijab, and most don't wear burqa but that doesn't mean they should all be banned from wearing burqa if they desire to, it is very uncommon among the majority of muslims).

pie  Wrote:

Abstraction. Large powerful group feels threatened, sends army/deathsquad.

"Threatened"? No, America was not "threatened" why the heck are you on a conspiracy website if you don't even know the BASICS OF CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING? Everyone freaking knows or should know that America made up the "weapons of mass destruction" thing to invade Iraq to control their OIL because of Halliburton and the CARLYLE GROUP. FOR GOODNESS SAKES MAN, CAN YOU REALLY BE THAT OUT OF IT!? AND YOU'RE ON LOP!? COME ON! GET WITH IT PLEASE.

pie  Wrote:

pie  Wrote:

It happened through the same mechanism. Get people all lined up and agreeing on one set of beliefs. So yes, in a way, they made it so they were threatened.

Besides, how many times have you even heard the prez say that god sent him on a mission and god told him to do this or that.

If he was a real Christian and not a mouthpiece for greedy corporations, he would fear killing people since Jesus said in the Bible not to kill and to turn the other cheek. Why would you believe that politicians are honest? He lied, he is probably as anti-religious as you or worse, hell bent on murdering religious people (worse than you, since you don't kill people hopefully). He presided over the executions of numerous Christians, and then blew up tons of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq among other places.

Now please see if you can go up to the thing I bolded. You said "lined up" "one set of beliefs" that is what you're proposing by BANNING RELIGION, since then people would be FORCE FED one set of beliefs!

Bush made several comments in private that make it seem quite apparent he doesn't believe he'll have to answer for anything and that everyone will forget his crimes and everyone will be dead someday so it doesn't even matter, he said stuff like that.

POLITICIANS PRETEND TO BE RELIGIOUS, BUT WHEN THEY MASS MURDER PEOPLE IT BECOMES APPARENT THAT THEY ARE NOT RELIGIOUS SINCE THEY WOULD FEAR GOD AND NOT DO EVIL LIKE THAT.

pie  Wrote:

He is not a real christian, but that's the whole problem. He is using real christians.

I am not imposing a common set of beliefs, i am actually opposing it. What i propose is the lack of imposed faith.

Ok, now here is my suggestion (which I think is better):

One should USE THE RELIGIONS TO MAKE PEOPLE PEACEFUL

So people can STAY IN THEIR RELIGIOUS CONTEXT, but the things they should become educated about should promote the PEACEFUL ASPECTS.

So Christians should be educated IN DEPTH about Christianity, so that they know everything about it and thus see that killing is said to be wrong.

So Muslims should be educated IN DEPTH about ISLAM and shown that it says never to be the aggressor and to be peaceful.

and everyone should learn about all the religions as much as possible to see how they are all similar and all promote peace and goodness.

pie  Wrote:

If no religion is ever imposed on anyone (at birth or otherwise), then this should come automatically.

An exam wouldn't hurt either.

I'm sorry but I think it is wrong to invade into the private lives of people to get them to ban the ideas they pass on to their children. The education system and other sources like the media should be used to provide TONS OF INFORMATION (rather than gossip) about all religions, all fairly, all in great detail, and also about history of every place in the world, and everything, all with detailed backed up sources and any mention of contentions and opposite opinions.

By INFORMING PEOPLE, you EMPOWER THEM to make INFORMED DECISIONS. This is the only way. To invade into the private life of people and say YOU CANT PASS ON YOUR CULTURE OR ETHICS OR RELIGION TO A CHILD is very wrong, but education can help everyone, even within the contexts of their religions.

If everyone knew the truth about religion and history and everything else, there would only be one religion, and it would be the truth.

No one would deny the logic that everything has an Ultimate source, just like the ancients logically derived, and also people would be informed of science and history and everything else through information NOT FORCING BANS.

pie  Wrote:

I agree with your view on holding a religion accountable. Which is my point really.
Anyway, i propose to ban all imposed religion. No auto-join on birth.
Wait until people are adults and let them choose.

Parents will ALWAYS pass on their beliefs to their children, YOU CAN NOT BAN BELIEF PASSING, IT ISN'T POSSIBLE. Everyone will pass on their ethics to their child, because children notice subtle things even, and you can't censor people in their homes. What you're asking is impossible. My solution is realistic and possible, and requires no restrictions, only increased awareness and information sharing.

Forcing a ban would have one result, religion would go underground, and subversive elements would try to constantly overthrow the ban and the government that supports the ban against freedom of thought.

The only way to enlighten people is to educate them about all things, educate them about their religions, show them how they are supposed to be peaceful and good.

LoP Guest  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

but the Qur'an says never to be the aggressors, but tells people they have the right to defend themselves if attacked.

That's just broadly untrue. the Qur'an is filled with passages calling for violence. Without being "defensive" or under attack, unless you consider anyone not being Islamic attacking Islam. Which they do...

I think you're the one saying something "broadly untrue". It can easily be discovered by actually reading the Qur'an cover to cover to see that all the things people quote out of context and with exclusion to the verses before and after to instigate fear is psychological warfare.

The Qur'an never says "kill people for not being muslim" or anything like that. It says to ignore disbelievers, it says "your religion to you, my religion to me", and all the fighting verses are in context of being attacked first and it clearly states it and says not to be aggressors and to accept peace if people cease attacking.

Now you can try to find verses like those I've mentioned and annoyingly cut out the context of the verses before and after or even cut the verse itself to try to prove your false point, and then I can show the fully context and highlight that what you would be claiming is an outright lie trying to mislead people, but instead of that, lets just skip it and you can remain utterly ignorant and bigoted in your understanding of world religions and I can remain more informed. OR you can actually read the Qur'an AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN if you need to, and the other religious books, and find out that I don't lie about it or say "broadly untrue" things about it as you did.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/
http://www.bible.cc

Go ahead, have fun, I've read it tons of times, you'll probably claim you have to, but you may have missed what I'm talking about, so go ahead and read it again and again, thanks.

Well, what everyone should know is the following:

1. It is unknown exactly how old the Qur'an is, but it is assumed to be at least some 1400 years old written in 600 C.E. (A.D.) or something like that.

2. The Qur'an is considered contemporary to the lifetime of Muhammed, but is not a book about him the way the New Testament is about Jesus, rather it is written as if it is being SPOKEN TO Muhammed.

3. The Qur'an is originally in Arabic (like the Old Testament is in Hebrew, the New Testament is in Greek). In Arabic, the Qur'an has a rhythmic rhyming style that can't be translated into the english because the words are different and wouldn't rhyme, so the translations are just the interpretations of the words and sentences usually.

4. Muhammed died at some point after he stopped the construction of the Qur'an and then the surahs (each like their own complete poems) were collected. They rhymed and thus were easy to memorize but scribes had apparently written them too.

5. Long after Muhammed was dead, some 200 years after the start of the Islamic Calendar, a Persian named Bukhari wrote down the traditions and folktales he heard about Muhammed being recited by people. He included with these apparent chains of storytellers that supposedly went back to some people who claimed to have known Muhammed, though all of them were long dead as well if they ever existed. If even one in these chains lied or was invented then the whole story could be bull, by modern standards these stories would not be considered trustworthy sources, they contain stories of miracles among other things.

Muslims consider the Qur'an the most important, but many rely on the hadiths (these story collections) to give them an idea of what early muslims believed about Muhammed and what they practiced by the time the hadiths were written (though the hadiths did not spread worldwide immediately, and most people were only familiar with the Qur'an and what traditions were told in their own lands and communities, thus on the detailed level there are many different kinds of muslims though all agree in the concept of PURE MONOTHEISM and CHARITY which is the basic message of the Qur'an.

I hope that helped. If you won't read the Qur'an, at least read what I wrote above.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8b6Go61Vks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiHQ3XuGSyg

Post: #3930

This is my very first post on this forum and I write to express my gratitude to you, OP.

Your eloquent argument in this thread is not only very refreshing, it is profoundly inspiring. All of it resonates deeply with me, I know (or, have been born into knowing this)-your descriptions of God are completely validated. I have saved some of your text, so that I can re-visit the concepts you've wonderfully presented.

I believe absolute faith is an intimate part of us, a natural state of us, it is only through dumbing down and systematic, multi-generational brainwashing, that the sense of trust in the Absolute Almighty gets weeded out or muddled. Further and further until all that remains is fearful emptiness of spirit. Scary.

It is evident that the state of the world today is the combined result of people working against God and dis-spirited masses, aiding them in worldwide soul-cide. This level of destruction (and distraction) can ONLY be explained by utter misunderstanding of our existance (of God, of basic laws of creation, etc.).

I hope with truthful education and mutual respect we can overcome this learned hopelessness. Knowing that all resides "in the hands" of God Almighty, I am hopeful and grateful.

May God bless you for your beautiful efforts!