Post: #181

LysaStrata  Wrote:

religion from re-ligare

re -again

ligare - bind, connect

"bind again" ---this is exactly what we are trying to do after our disobedience in the Garden when we lost our connection with God.

Religion is the process that we undertake to re-establish our connection.

"Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligare "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re (again) + ligare or "to reconnect,""

from Wiki on Religion

Yes, I didn't mean to contradict you at all by showing what etymonline said. I think the origins of the world may be pre Christian though, and might not have originally been a reference to the story of Adam and Eve.

Post: #182

LysaStrata  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

So the religion I'm promoting here, I feel, does fulfill the requriements of many others, and even avoids what might be the worst possible punishment if such a punishment exists.

The ancient religions did not have really severe requirements usually, purification and worship were a regular part of life, only now does it seem like an extra hassle to perform such things during a busy schedule. In Rome for example, and even Egypt, it wasn't uncommon to worship privately or at public places of worship throughout the day in intervals between regular work.

I'm not totally sure which requirements in Judaism and Christianity as suggested in the Bible are not met by worshipping one God in the traditional manner.

Judaism has the Mosaic law.

Christianity only offers salvation through believing in Jesus Christ, learning the scriptures, being baptized and transforming yourself through your understanding.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

As I have said before, the Bible is a how to book. It describes a process.

It isn't so simple as it has been described of late. Just believe and you are saved. That is just not what the Bible says.

We pray to speak to God. We read the Bible to hear Him speak to us.

2 Ti 3:14-17
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I have a few questions about what you wrote here, and thank you so much for writing all this!

1. What is the Mosaic Law? Is it the ten commandments?

2. I interpreted the statement of "I am the way" as a reference to following the conduct of Jesus, and that those who perform religion as Jesus did, will win. I don't think Jesus ever asked to be worshipped, nor did Jesus worship himself or anything like that, but that he himself was the message, through his acts, which also depict the monotheism and worship I've been talking about among other things, and he said clearly the most important commandment was the shema, the statement on the first page of this thread. So I agree that following the way of Jesus is definitely the right way, and that Jesus did not worship himself or anything like that, but worshipped God alone, and lived a good clean life. "I am the way" follow what Jesus did in religion. "I am the truth" the message of Jesus is the truth. "I am the life" the life of Jesus was lived in correct religion, it is this lifestyle that we should emulate as much as we can, and it lived in submission to God, total dependency on God, and worship of God alone. Nobody can approach God if they are not performing the religion of Jesus. That is how I interpreted it anyway.

3. It says "all scripture" but many have removed some scriptures, and then there are other scriptures outside of the Bible. Don't we select based on the message? What qualifies as scripture to be followed?

I think it is important to differentiate when people are talking about Jesus, are post Paul, and when Jesus is reported to have said things. Ultimately, I don't think the scriptures we have are the scripture of Jesus (though it may be), I really this what we have are reports of the sayings of Jesus from a long time after his death, but not the actual scripture if Jesus wrote one or dictated one, but we may have fragments through the reported sayings. The style I think would be different if it was the direct revelation of Jesus.

Post: #183

LysaStrata  Wrote:

The Commandments of Christ

The following is a list of commands which form the basis of our life in Christ. Most were spoken directly by Christ; many were added for clarity by the writers of the epistles.

1. Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you (Matt. 5:44).

Isn't it funny, that the order of the commandments here places this as number one, when Jesus clearly stated that the most important commandment is the shema, the declaration of pure monotheism and worship? Everyone seems to cut that out and neglect it totally.

Post: #184

I really appreciate the list though! I think its great! I'm always kind of insulted by how they cut out or underplay the most important commandment though, I wonder why that is?

Post: #185

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Do not like this god much. I have found a better one.

What God is there other than the one?

Post: #186

LysaStrata  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

I have a few questions about what you wrote here, and thank you so much for writing all this!

1. What is the Mosaic Law? Is it the ten commandments?

This is the law given to Moses. It includes the 10 commandments but there is more. 613 Mitzvot (commandments) to be precise.
The 613 Mitzvot (Hebrew: תרי"ג מצוות‎: Taryag Mitzvot, "613 commandments"; Biblical Hebrew: Miṣwoth) are statements and principles of law, ethics, and spiritual practice contained in the Torah or Five Books of Moses. These principles of Biblical law are sometimes called connections or commandments (mitzvot) and referred to collective http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot

A Jew would be required to live under the law. Sacrifice is actually part of these laws but the Temple is no longer there.

Sadly, the law can only condemn. There is no salvation in the law. The Hope of Israel was future.

2. I interpreted the statement of "I am the way" as a reference to following the conduct of Jesus, and that those who perform religion as Jesus did, will win. I don't think Jesus ever asked to be worshipped, nor did Jesus worship himself or anything like that, but that he himself was the message, through his acts, which also depict the monotheism and worship I've been talking about among other things, and he said clearly the most important commandment was the shema, the statement on the first page of this thread. So I agree that following the way of Jesus is definitely the right way, and that Jesus did not worship himself or anything like that, but worshipped God alone, and lived a good clean life. "I am the way" follow what Jesus did in religion. "I am the truth" the message of Jesus is the truth. "I am the life" the life of Jesus was lived in correct religion, it is this lifestyle that we should emulate as much as we can, and it lived in submission to God, total dependency on God, and worship of God alone. Nobody can approach God if they are not performing the religion of Jesus. That is how I interpreted it anyway.

Read all of John 14 for a more complete picture. You are on the right track but there is just more. If you believe, you must follow the process.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
God manifestation--God will live (abode) with you!!

You must indeed seek to emulate Christ's actions--as he was the perfect representation of God's character.
God gave us the law to highlight that we are sinful creatures---you are not speeding if there is no speed limit. But the law was only for a time. it was just our first lesson. Tell me.
Our second lesson was Show me. And Jesus was our example. He acted sinlessly, perfectly representing God's character. God manifestation.
To learn something: Show me, Tell me and now I will try myself. We are to DO THESE THINGS. Though we will fall short of the glory of God.


This is a concept that sets "Christianity" apart from every other religion out there. Other religions tell you that by your actions, you can become acceptable to God. Christianity tells you that NO MATTER what, you could NEVER be acceptable to God (ALL fall short of the glory of God). This is why we need an intercessor. This is why we need Jesus.

I have made this point before but I will insert it here as well. Jesus did not die FOR our sins. He did not die IN PLACE of us.
Jesus was born the same as us=---human. Because of Adam's disobedience in the Garden, man was made "mortal" or subject to death. (His father was God so he had some additional reserves)
Jesus was born with this human nature---subject to death. This is a "sinful nature" But death is the wages of sin. We earn it with our sinfulness.

Now there are TWO kinds of sin---sinful nature and transgression of the law (see above 613 Mitzvot). Jesus never transgressed the law. He never sinned. And yet he died. That is unjust. He never sinned. And death is the payment for sin. Wait a minute!!! God (in His perfect righteousness) could not allow an injustice. So Jesus was resurrected.

His death was not in our place or for us or any of that. He ABROGATED the law of condemnation for himself and for all that believe in him and obey the law. Basically, he broke the system. He created a loophole.

Now, we are all still born mortal, with a sinful nature. So if we want to beat the death sentence we are born with---we must get baptized---meaning die symbolically and be resurrected---identifying with Jesus. We fulfill our death sentence! We are reborn filled with God's word--and God's word can never die.

It's a beautiful story but it is elaborate and complex. God doesn't do 30 minute sitcoms and unfortunately, most minds are limited in this way.

And if we want to identify with Jesus--and reach salvation using his loophole--we must DO HIS COMMANDMENTS or the Bible tells us, he will say "I never knew you".

And you are absolutely correct---you don't worship Jesus. You only worship God--and in the name of Jesus, you approach him. It's not what you know--it's who you know. Kidding. But it is a kind of "Jesus sent me" kind of thing. Jesus is kind of our team leader or coach--but he isn't god. This is a real problem in the story with what I call MSC (mainstream christianity).

I will post all of his commandments in a minute gleaned out of the Bible.

3. It says "all scripture" but many have removed some scriptures, and then there are other scriptures outside of the Bible. Don't we select based on the message? What qualifies as scripture to be followed?

I think it is important to differentiate when people are talking about Jesus, are post Paul, and when Jesus is reported to have said things. Ultimately, I don't think the scriptures we have are the scripture of Jesus (though it may be), I really this what we have are reports of the sayings of Jesus from a long time after his death, but not the actual scripture if Jesus wrote one or dictated one, but we may have fragments through the reported sayings. The style I think would be different if it was the direct revelation of Jesus.


There is endless machinations that can be done trying to figure out what should be in and out. It doesn't lead anywhere meaningful.
I trust that God --in His infinite power--can keep what He needs together in the book. We have a complete story--all we need to learn and understand the process. It's the process that is important. And we have complete information on it.
So many fail to realize this. This isn't a motivational type book, or even a book of rules, or a collection of nice sayings---This is a how to book!!! It is an information manual!! To be studied, and unlocked. We need to find the map within and follow it.

Thank you so much for your wonderful words. I don't think there can be any intercessor between God and man, but rather that man can communicate directly with God. We worship and do everything in the name of God, just as Jesus did. I don't believe Jesus was the manifestation of God, but rather, the manifestation and example of right religious conduct and belief.

The reason that there is no true intercessor, is that nobody can overtake God's command, only God can do anything. Anyone can pray for another, but if that prayer will be accepted is up to God alone, and God is not bound to do anything that anyone demands. God is the greatest always, and with God is full command over everything, no one can truly intercede or block God's command, nor can anyone forgive another if God does not forgive them.

Jesus is the example to mankind of the true religion, the religion of pure monotheism and full submission to God, making one's will in accordance to God's prescriptions and commands, to believe in and worship God in the prescribed and ancient manner, and do good and charity.

In the end, it is up to God alone if God forgives us or punishes us, and God is free of requirements and can ultimately do whatever.

So if Jesus was to command something, God would not be forced to do it, but if God commands something, it will happen.

Post: #187

LysaStrata  Wrote:

I mentioned the 613 Mitzvot in my last (well, the last long) post.

Here is a link to a list http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

THey have them broken down into sections.

you will be happy to note that they do, indeed, put them in an order with the Shema on top!

G-d

1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.
3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
4. To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
5. Not to profane G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
7. To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
8. To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
9. Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
10. To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).


Go to the link for the rest.

I really enjoyed that so much!

Post: #188

Wikipedia provided a version as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot

Post: #189

LysaStrata  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Thank you so much for your wonderful words. I don't think there can be any intercessor between God and man, but rather that man can communicate directly with God. We worship and do everything in the name of God, just as Jesus did. I don't believe Jesus was the manifestation of God, but rather, the manifestation and example of right religious conduct and belief.

The reason that there is no true intercessor, is that nobody can overtake God's command, only God can do anything. Anyone can pray for another, but if that prayer will be accepted is up to God alone, and God is not bound to do anything that anyone demands. God is the greatest always, and with God is full command over everything, no one can truly intercede or block God's command, nor can anyone forgive another if God does not forgive them.

Jesus is the example to mankind of the true religion, the religion of pure monotheism and full submission to God, making one's will in accordance to God's prescriptions and commands, to believe in and worship God in the prescribed and ancient manner, and do good and charity.

In the end, it is up to God alone if God forgives us or punishes us, and God is free of requirements and can ultimately do whatever.

So if Jesus was to command something, God would not be forced to do it, but if God commands something, it will happen.

I agree that we communicate directly to God. We always address prayer to God. Like I said, it is just a "Jesus sent me" or like asking for the Jesus "special" to put it colloquially. Letting God know that we are coming seeking Him with Jesus in mind.
God manifestation is the basis of all the Bible. The ultimate is when God is "all and IN all"
God's name means "I will be manifested" (this could be a very long discussion in itself so I won't go off on a tangent)

Jesus only operates under God's command or rather with power given to him by God--because of his loyalty, his faithfulness, his manifestation of God's character. Anything Jesus does would be in perfect harmony with God.

It is set up in this manner because that is what God wanted. It is how God, in His infinite wisdom, has given us a chance of salvation.

I agree that Jesus acted according to God's will, and did the right thing. I believe God is manifested everywhere always, in the sense of being there and sustaining all existence. I believe that God has certain qualities, that humans can emulate in some ways. For example, mercy, fair trial, giving freely, patience, and many more excellent qualities. I don't know where Jesus said that he comes in the name of himself to speak to God, with himself in mind to speak to God. Jesus is to be admired and emulated in many ways, but I don't think intercession is actually a good thing that is favored by God, who is with us always.

Post: #190

LysaStrata  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

I agree that Jesus acted according to God's will, and did the right thing. I believe God is manifested everywhere always, in the sense of being there and sustaining all existence. I believe that God has certain qualities, that humans can emulate in some ways. For example, mercy, fair trial, giving freely, patience, and many more excellent qualities. I don't know where Jesus said that he comes in the name of himself to speak to God, with himself in mind to speak to God. Jesus is to be admired and emulated in many ways, but I don't think intercession is actually a good thing that is favored by God, who is with us always.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14 is a great chapter for Jesus' words on the subject

http://www.religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm

That isn't totally related but might give a hint as to what people were doing with the gospel of John.

Post: #191

LysaStrata  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

LysaStrata  Wrote:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14 is a great chapter for Jesus' words on the subject

http://www.religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm

That isn't totally related but might give a hint as to what people were doing with the gospel of John.

Early church lectionaries prescribed reading of Joh 7:37--8:12 for Whitsunday with the omission of Joh 7:53-8:11. Thus these verses were omitted from official copies, leading to doubts about their origin (WRI 116).

Oh ok. I really don't think Jesus ever asked for anything even close to worship or glorification of himself, so it might need more careful research if those are real statements from Jesus also.

Post: #192

I agree that Jesus was a rightful King, and that he was excellent in conduct and following the religion of God, but was not a manifestation of God or incarnation or any of that. We could say that he was the manifestation of the word/command of God, and a followers of the commandments who was to be the Messiah (annointed one, in the line of David), King of the B'nei Israel.

Post: #193

I think the word manifestation often brings to mind the idea of actually appearing, similar to incarnation. What you're saying is fine though. The behavior of Jesus was certainly righteous and good, and would remind people of religious conduct and perhaps led them to become more religious and things.

Post: #194

FreedomStands  Wrote:

I think the word manifestation often brings to mind the idea of actually appearing, similar to incarnation. What you're saying is fine though. The behavior of Jesus was certainly righteous and good, and would remind people of religious conduct and perhaps led them to become more religious and things.

How does that concept play a role in modern circumstance... why do we not see a situation where all that is good takes a big show trip to correct us... well ya know ... why not stop all the shit that is wrong ? why let it continue ...

seeing as only you folks have the real answers and a power that is beyond us mortal clumsy folk... can you lay out a sure fired plan that will insure that my friends will not burn in hell ...? I worry about my buddies...

Post: #195

Jack Hammer  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

I think the word manifestation often brings to mind the idea of actually appearing, similar to incarnation. What you're saying is fine though. The behavior of Jesus was certainly righteous and good, and would remind people of religious conduct and perhaps led them to become more religious and things.

How does that concept play a role in modern circumstance... why do we not see a situation where all that is good takes a big show trip to correct us... well ya know ... why not stop all the shit that is wrong ? why let it continue ...

seeing as only you folks have the real answers and a power that is beyond us mortal clumsy folk... can you lay out a sure fired plan that will insure that my friends will not burn in hell ...? I worry about my buddies...

Great question. I understand you may not be entirely serious, but I'll answer anyway as best I can.

The worst possible end result is eternal hell.

Most religions suggest the same things to avoid it, even if the nature of the punishment seems slightly different between the religions.

They nearly all suggest worshipping God and doing good deeds.

The traditional way of worshipping was like what I wrote about earlier, there is one religion that is known for doing it more than others, but it was standard across the world in ages past.

The good deeds were usually always the same, charity, kindness, patience, fasting at certain times, sincerity, and things like that.

It is unknown if hell exists or will exist at any time.
It is unknown what happens after death to the dead person if anything at all.

It is not wise to bet on nothing happening if something is going to happen.
It is not wise to bet on something happening that couldn't be prepared for.

It is not useful to bet that the worst possible thing will happen without any hope of avoiding it.

It is useful to bet that the worst possible thing will happen while having hope that the worst possible thing can be avoided, and working towards avoiding it.

The method prescribed by the majority has generally been the same throughout history.

The idea is that whatever has power over your future is what can be relied upon to save you from any trouble then.

It does not help to not call upon God, expecting that there is no such thing that would listen to you.

It is unwise to expect that you'll be saved from any trouble without even attempting anything to prevent trouble.

It is useless to call upon what has no control over anything.

God can be defined as whatever has control over everything past, present and future.

There may be no such thing, but expecting there to be no such thing does not help if there is such a thing that you didn't call upon because you thought there was no such thing.

Your only hope then is to call upon whatever has all the power, God, and to ask it for help, to worship it, and to do good.

It is unknown if it dislikes worship, all religions indicate that it likes and appreciates thanks and worship.

It may be that all religions are wrong, but there is no way for you to know that in this case.

Call upon the ultimate power, the all powerful God, and be respectful. If it is true that it has immense power over your fortune and misfortune in the present and future, it is wise to approach it carefully, with fear and respect.

It is this hypothetical power that can save you from a hypothetical hell. Worship it in the traditional manner throughout the day, live your normal functional life, find opportunities to do good and charity, and die in submission to this power, and hope for the best.

In the end, you may never wake up, or you may discover that it was nothing that could have been anticipated, or you may discover that you had wagered correctly, worshipped the powerful one, and may be favored in the afterlife.

Believing in universal salvation does not benefit a person, because doing this or that doesn't matter, you'll be saved anyway if its true, and you'll be mistaken if you find its not true.

Believing in reincarnation does not benefit a person, because doing this or that doesn't matter, you'll be reincarnated if it is true, or you'll find that you're mistaken if it is not true.

Believing in ceasing to exist at death does not benefit a person, because doing this or that doesn't matter, you'll never live again if it is true, or you'll find that you're mistaken if it is not true.

Believing in hell and paradise benefits a person, because doing this or that does matter, if you never live again you've only lived a life doing good, and if you were right you will be rewarded and will have avoided or at least attempted to avoid the punishment of hell.

Believing in a God who does not interfere with people does not benefit a person, because doing this or that doesn't matter, if you are right then it never mattered, and if you are wrong you will have been mistaken and may be potentially punished.

Believing in a God who only loves and forgives does not benefit a person, because doing this or that doesn't matter, if you are right then God forgives you, and if you are wrong, you will not have prepared for the God that punishes.

Believing in an inferior God does not benefit a person, because the Ultimate with all the power should be relied on and called upon, never anything less than the Ultimate in every way (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Infinite). If you are wrong and there was a greater God then you would have been mistaken. You should call upon the greatest of the great, of which there is no greater possibility.

Believing in a God that only harms does not benefit a person, because it leaves a person with no hope, and if they were wrong then they never worked towards the mercy and beneficial aspect of the God.

Believing in a God that does no harm does not benefit a person, because then it is harmless and is not a threat to be concerned about. If one discovers they were wrong, they may not have worked to avoid the harmful aspect of the God.

It is wise to believe and anticipate the possibility of a God that has power over both harm and benefit, it leaves a person with the hope to work towards the beneficial aspect, and to avoid the harmful aspect, if it is false, a person has only done good to gain good from the God, and if it is true, then a person has worked to defend themselves from harm.

So there is only one wise religion. It estimates potential harm and potential benefit, and has an ultimate power that controls the harm and the benefit and one has hope to work for the benefit, and defense to work against the harm. Perfect religion.

If the God will only listen to an intercessor, the intercessor is the true holder of power. If the God dislikes people trying to use intercessors, the person will be in trouble for trying to make partners or claim that another has power besides God. So it is God alone to be called upon, God being defined as the Ultimate and All Powerful that Knows everything, is everywhere, and is infinite without limitations.

All religions generally promote the same one God, with the same qualities, but then have additional things which render it pointless to follow, such as reincarnation, or whatever else.

The religion to bet on will have lots of back up, will give only one chance (because if there are more chances, thats great, but you should be working like there is only one just in case there is really only one), have the worst possible punishment, the most powerful God, and does not radically oppose the religions of the past, but has been indicated to people throughout history. This is one religion, it is submission to God through worship and good deeds, and it is a real religion, not one that I've just invented, and it has existed throughout the ages, and it practiced by many to this day.