Post: #3946

A New Man  Wrote:

Since you asked...
In the seventh century A.D., the prophet Muhammad (SAW) was
sent to the people of Arabia. Within a decade of his death
the Muslims had conquered all of the Arabian peninsula. Within a
century, Islam had spread from Al-Andalus in Spain to the borders of
China. Islam unified science, theology, and philosophy. Muslims were
commanded to study, seek knowledge, and learn and benefit from
others' experiences by Allah (SWT) in the holy Quran and by the
prophet Muhammad (SAW) in the Sunnah. It was this that inspired the
Muslims to great heights in sciences, medicine, mathematics,
astronomy, chemistry, philosophy, art and architecture.

Muslim scholars began obtaining Greek treatises and started
their study and translation into Arabic a few centuries after
the Hijrah (622 A.D.) They critically analyzed, collated , corrected
and supplemented substantially the Greek science and philosophy.
After this period began what is known as the Golden Age
of Islam, which lasted for over two centuries. It is here we find
many of the great scientists of Islam who literally left behind
hundreds and thousands of books on the various branches of science.

Abu Ali al-Hussain Ibn Abdallah Ibn Sina, universally known
as Avicinna (980-1037), alone wrote 246 books, including
Kitab-al Shifa (The Book of Healing) consisting of 20 volumes and Al-
Qanun fit Tibb (The Canons of Medicine) . The Qanun was the chief
guide for medical science in the West from the twelfth to the
seventeenth century. Dr. William Osler, who wrote The Evolution of
Modern Science, remarks "The Qanun has remained a medical Bible for
a longer period than any other work". Containing over
a million words, it surveyed the entire medical knowledge available
from ancient and Muslim sources, and including his own original
contributions.

Ibn Sina's original contributions included such advances
such as recognition of the contagious nature of phtisis and
tuberculosis; distribution of diseases by water and soil and the
interaction between psychology and health. Also, the book described
over 760 drugs and became the most authentic of its era. Ibn Sina
was also the first to describe meningitis and made rich contributions
to anatomy, gynaecology and child health.

This interest in medicine went back to the time of
the Prophet (SAW), who once said that there
existed a cure for every disease. With this spirit there were
hospitals and clinics built all over the Muslim world, the earliest
built in 707 by Caliph Walid ibn Abd a-Malik in Damascus.
Muslims made many advances such as the idea of circulation of
blood and quarantine and the foundation of the first apothecary shops
and the earliest school of pharmacy.

Hunayn ibn Ishaq, a philosopher and physician made advances
in Medicine, Physics, Mathematics, Astronomy Veterinary
Science, and Ophthalmology. He was the head of the famous school of
translators founded by Caliph Mamun at Baghdad and wrote the first
systematic text book on opthamology.

Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (865-925 AD) , known
as Rhazes, was one of the most prolific Muslim doctors and
probably second only to Ibn Sina in his accomplishments. He was born
at Ray, Iran and became a student of Hunayn ibn Ishaq and later a
student of Ali ibn Rabban. He wrote over 200 books, including Kitab
al-Mansuri, ten volumes on Greek medicine, and al-Hawi, an
encyclopedia of medicine in 20 volumes. In al-Hawi, he
included each medical subject's information available from Greek and
Arab sources and then added his own remarks based on his experience
and views. He classified substances as vegetable, animal or mineral
while other alchemists divided them into "bodies", "souls" and
"spirits".

Al-Razi was first placed in charge of the first Royal
Hospital at Ray, from where he soon moved to a similar
position in Baghdad where he remained the head of its famous
Muqtadari Hospital for a long time. He found a treatment for kidney
and bladder stones, and explained the nature of various infectious
diseases. He also conducted research on smallpox and
measles and was the first to introduce the use of alcohol for medical
purposes. A unique feature to his medical system was
that he greatly favored cure through correct and regulated food
intake. This was combined with his emphasis on the influence of
psychological factors on health. He also tried proposed remedies
first on animals in order to evaluate their effects and side
effects. He was also an expert surgeon and the first to use opium
for anesthesia.

Another great physician who soon followed was al-Razi was
Abul Qasim al-Zahrawi (963-1013 AD) who is known as Albucasis
to the West. A famous surgeon in his time, at the court of Caliph
al- Hakam II , students and patients flocked to him from the Muslim
world and Europe. He wrote the medical encyclopedia al-Tasrif li man
ajaz an-il-talif, which contained 30 sections of surgical knowledge
and illustrations of 200 surgical instruments, most of which he
designed himself. The Encyclopedia was not only a standard for
physicians, but even five centuries later it was being used as the
standard textbook on surgery in universities in Europe.
He also performed many delicate operations such as Cesareans and was
also the first to use silk thread for stitching wounds.

Al-Idrisi was born in Cordova, Spain in 1099. His major
contribution was in medicinal plants which he described in
many books, such as Kitab al-Jami-li-Sifat Ashtat al-Nabatat. He
collected plans and data not reported earlier and added this to the
subject of botany. From him a large number of new drugs from plants
with their evaluations became available to medical practitioners.
Al-Idrisi also made original contributions to topography, as related
to economics, physical factors and cultural aspects. He wrote
geographical encyclopedias, the largest called Rawd-Unnas wa Nuzhalat
Nafs (Pleasure of Men and Delight of Souls). Al-Idrisi
also wrote on the subjects of fauna, zoology and threapeutical
aspects. His work was soon translated into Latin and his books on
geography especially remained popular in the east and west for
several centuries.

Working in the field of botany as well was abu Muhammad Ibn
al-Baitar, also from Spain. He was one of the greatest
scientists of Muslim Spain and one of the greatest botanists and
pharmacists of the Middle Ages. He went on many traveling
expeditions to collect plants as far as Africa and Asia Minor. He
wrote Kitab al-Jami al-Adiwaya al-Mufrada, one of the greatest
botanical compilations dealing with medicinal plants in Arabic The
encyclopedia was made of over 1,400 items, many of which were not
known before. The book referred to the works of 150 authors, mostly
Arabic and quoted about 20 early Greek scientists. It was translated
into Latin and published as late as 1758.

Ibn al-Baitars works were characterized by observation,
analysis and classification and exerted a profound influence
on Eastern as well as Western botany and medicine. Even though many
of his works were translated and published late in the western
languages, many earlier scientists had studied various parts of the
book and made several references to it.

At the same time as these advances in medicine were being
made, the Muslims produced some of the most outstanding
Mathematicians. Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, born in 780 A.D.,
was the founder of modern Algebra. He developed sine, cosine and
trigonometrical tables, which were later translated to the West. His
book on algebra Hisab al-Jabr waal-Muqabalah (The Calculation of
Integration and Equation) was used until the 16th century as the
principal textbook of European universities. In it he
writes that given an equation, collecting the unknowns in one side of
the equation is called al-Jabr and collecting the knowns in the other
side of the equation is called al- Mukabalah. He also described six
basic types of equations: nx=m , x^2=nx , x^2=m , m+x^2 =nx, m+nx
+x^2 and x^2=m+nx. He also solved the particular equation
x^2+21=10x using geometrical arguments.

Al-Khawarizmi also helped introduce Arabic numerals, the
decimal position system, and the concept of zero. Algebra
and Algorithm are in fact corruption's of his work and name.
Interestingly, this first every book on algebra included many
examples from the Islamic inheritance laws and how they could be
solved using algebra. Under al-Mamun the caliph of the time, he with
some others were the first to map the globe.

In the field of Algebra the Muslims continued with Thabit Ibn
Qurra's more general equations solved by geometrical
arguments. In 901, Abu Kamil, called "the Egyptian calculator", did
some work on algebra in which he established rules for manipulating
algebraic expressions. He also proved various laws such as
ax*bx-abx^2, a(bx)=(ab)x and (10-x)(10-x)=100+x^2-20x (Mirza, p124).
Around 1000, Abu Bakr Al-Karaji, in his book The Marvelous discussed
higher order equations such as fourth and fifth order equations,
combing geometry and arithmetic. Al-Samawal
established the power law x^nx^n=x^(m+n) in 1180 in his work The
Shining which is just one of his 85 books. He also worked on
performing multiplication of algebraic expressions involving terms
with different powers and division of polynomials. Abu
Yunus proved the famous identity cos(a)cos(b)={cos(a+b)+cos(a-b)}/2
and used spherical trigonometry to set formulas to computer prayer
times. Al-Biruni also used spherical trigonometry to find the
direction of Mecca or any other city on the globe.

Another outstanding mathematician was Ghiyath al-Din al
Kashani of the late fourteenth century. He worked on the
theory of numbers and techniques of computations. In 1424, he
computed a value of 2pi to sixteen decimal digits of accuracy using
an approximation of the circle by 805306368 side polygon. One of his
most important works was Miftah elHussab or The Calculators' Key, in
it he described an algorithm for finding the fifth root of any
number. The book was used in Persian schools until the seventeenth
century. Later in his life he moved to Samarkand at the request of
the then ruler to help direct a new scientific school and observatory
and conduct research with other scholars of the time. Kashani also
wrote on how to approximate sin(1) by solving a cubic equation
accurately.

Umar Khayyam known to the west as only a poet actually also
was an excellent mathematician. He criticized Euclid's
theorems, evolved a methodology for the solution of third degree
equations, and did research in the field of binomials and their
coefficients.

Abu Wafa Muhammad al-Buzanji was born in Buzjan, Nishapur in
940 A. D. He became a great mathematician and astronomer at
Baghdad and died in 997 A.D. Al-Buzanji's main contribution lies in
several branches of mathematics, in geometry and trigonometry
especially. In geometry he contributed to a solution of geometrical
problems with opening of the compass, construction of a square
equivalent to other squares, regular polyhedra, construction of
regular hectagon taking for its side of the equilateral triangle
inscribed in the same circle, constructions of parabola by points and
geometrical solution of the equations x4=a and x4+ax3=b.

Al-Buzanji's contribution to the development of trigonometry
was also extensive. He was the first to show the generality
of the sine theorem relative to spherical triangles. He developed a
new method of constructing sine tables, the value of sin 30` being
correct to the eight decimal place. He also developed relations for
sine(a+b) and the formula: 2 sin2 (a/2) = 1 -cos a and sin a = 2 sin
(a/2) cos (a/2). In addition he studied tangent and
calculated tables for them. He introduced the secant and cosecant
for the first time. He wrote a large number of books on mathematics
and other subjects, most of which have been lost or exist in modified
forms. He also wrote rich commentaries on Euclid, Diophanatos and
al-Khwarizmi. A sizable part of today's trigonometry can be traced
back to him.

Abu Abdullah al-Battani (862-929 A.D.) was a son of a
scientist and also a famous astronomer, mathematician and
astrologer. He is often considered one of the greatest astronomists
of Islam. His career of 42 years included a number of important
discoveries, including the accurate determination of the solar year
as 365 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes, and 24 seconds, which is very close
to modern estimates. He also determined with accuracy
the obliquity of the ecliptic, the length of the seasons and the true
and mean orbit of the sun. He proved that in contrast to Ptolemy,
the variation of the apparent angular diameter of the sun and the
possibility of annular eclipses. His observations of lunar and solar
eclipses were used by Dunthorne in 1749 to determine the secular
acceleration of motion of the moon.

In mathematics, al-Battani was the first to replace the use
of Greekchords by sines and the first to develop the concept
of cotangent and furnished their table in degrees. He wrote a number
of books on astronomy and trigonometry. His most famous book was his
astronomical treatise with tables which was translated into Latin in
the 12th century, called De Sceinta Stellerum De numeris Stellerum et
Motibus. This was extremely influential in Europe until the
Renaissance, with translations available in several languages.
His original discoveries in both astronomy and
trigonometry were of great consequence in the development of those
sciences.

In the related field of Physics, Abu al-Fath Abd al-Rahman
al-Khazini studied mechanics and hydrostats and wrote books
on physics and astronomy. Al-Biruni, a geographer, chronologist,
mathematician, astronomer, was also a physicist. His Elements of
Astrology remained a textbook for centuries and he also wrote on
specific gravity, and developed formulas to determine absolute and
specific weights of all objects.

Abu al-Hassan al Haitham (965-1039 AD) was one of the most
eminent physicists, whose contribution to optics and the
scientific method were great. Originally from Basra, he went to
Egypt where he was asked to find ways of controlling the flood of the
Nile. Being unsuccessful in this, he feigned madness until the death
of Caliph al-Hakim. He also traveled to Spain and during this time
also had time for his scientific pursuits. He wrote treatises such
as Kital al-Manzir on light, worked with mirrors and lenses,
reflection, refraction, and magnifying and burning glasses.
He discussed the propagation of light and colors, optic
illusions and opposed the view of Euclid and Ptolemy that the eye
sent out visual rays. From studying motion, he discovered the
principle of inertia.

He contradicted Ptolemy's and Euclid's theory of vision that
objects are seen by rays of light emanating from the eyes.
According to Haitham, the rays originated in the object of vision
and not in the eye. Through this kind of extensive research on
optics, he has been considered the father of modern Optics. Roger
Bacon and all medieval Western writers on optics based their work
largely on his Opticae Thesaurus and it even influenced Leonardo da
Vinci, Johann Kepler and Newton.. Haitham also studied
the phenomena of sunrise and sunset and explained rainbows through
the principle of reflection. He was known for the
earliest use of the camera obscura as well.

Al-Kindi (d. 873 AD) considered the first philosopher of the
Arabs, also contributed to Physics , Optics, reflection of
light, specific weights, tides and metallurgy.

Muslims also made discoveries in Chemistry by discovering
many new substances such as potash, nitrate of silver,
corrosive sublimate and nitrate and sulfuric acid as well as
improving methods for evaporation, filtration, sublimation,
calcination, melting, distillation, and crystallization.
Jabir, otherwise known as the father of Arab alchemy
contributed in the fields of Pharmacology and Toxicology.

Al-Asma'i (740-882 AD) was a philologist who contributed to
Zoology, Botany and Animal Husbandry. Other
Muslim botanists described plants in detail, medicinal herbs,
physiology of plants and wrote books on horses, camels, sheep, birds,
the history of bees and locusts, the effect of climate on the
behavior of animals and men. Also working on the subject
of Botany, Suri al- Dimashqi researched plants around Damascus and
Lebanon at different stages of growth.

In the field of geography, Ibn Majid invented the compass.
The Muslims traversed the Indian, Atlantic and
Pacific Ocean as well as sailing around the African continent, in
their trading with India, Iran and Greece. They wrote such books as
Akhbar al-Hind (Reports on India), Akhbar al-Sin (Reports on China)
and Ajib al-Hind (Curiosities of India). Sulaiman
Al-Makri wrote of his travels in Al-budat and other books. Abu
al-Hasan al-Masudi, a historian and scientist, traveled the world
journeying from Persia, Central Asia, India, the Near East,
Madagascar and the China Sea. He wrote his encyclopedic volume on
his travels which included history, cosmology and geography.

Al-Biruni was the first known writer to identify certain
geological facts, such as the formation of sedimentary rocks
and the great geological changes that happened in the past. He was
also the founder of geodesy and wrote and improved upon the methods
of measuring longitudes, latitudes, heights of mountains and the
diameter of the earth. He also wrote on biological evolution.

Of the many scientists in the field of astronomy, Al-Sufi
helped build a famous observatory under the Buwayh sultan
Sharaf-al-Dawlah. He prepared charts of the heavens with magnitudes
and was the first to mark the nebula of Andromeda in his atlas.
Al-Zarqali from al-Andalus invented the astrolabe and
measured the rate of motion. He also constructed
astronomical instruments and built a water clock.

Jabir ibn Aflah was a Spanish Arab who criticized Ptolemy's
heliocentric theory of planetary motion. He designed the
first portable celestial sphere to explain and measure the movements
of celestial objects and led the way for spherical trigonometry.
Al-Bitruji developed a new theory of stellar movements.
Names of many constellations, words like zenith and
nadir and even names of craters of the moon all go back to the works
of Muslim scholars of this time.

We can see that these Islamic sciences had a great impact
upon both the Western world and also the two major
civilizations east of the Islamic world, India and China. Without
the Islamic scientists and their work, the development of science in
these civilizations would have been different. Between
the eleventh and thirteenth centuries the major works of Islamic
scientists were translated into Latin in Spain, Sicily and Italy.
Muslim scientists like Ibn Sina and al-Razi became household names in
the West. Islamic medicine led the way for European medicine.

In the field of mathematics the works of al-Khwarazmi and
others were taught in the Western universities for centuries.
Astronomical tables written in the West were based
upon the work of Muslims before them. Treatises on algebra that were
written were mostly based on the work of Khayyam. Works in chemistry
written in Latin used an extensive Arabic vocabulary because there
was no Latin vocabulary in this field.

Many of these scientists were also great philosophers, such
as Ibn Sina and al-Razi. Ibn Sina initially began studying
logic, from there he studied physics and metaphysics and was the
first to develop a complete philosophical system in Arabic.
Ibn Sina's philosophical encyclopedia Kitab al- Shifa was a
monumental work, embodying a vast field of knowledge from philosophy
to science. He classified the entire field as follows: theoretical
knowledge; physics, mathematics, and metaphysics; ethics, economics
and politics. His philosophy synthesized Aristotelian tradition,
Neoplatonic influences and Muslim theology. Besides al-Shifa his
well-known treatises in philosophy are al-Najat and Isharat.

Al-Razi's contribution as a philosopher was also well known.
The basic elements in his philosophical system were the
Creator, the spirit, matter, space and time. He discussed their
characteristics in detail and his concepts of space and time as
constituting a continuum. His philosophical views were, however,
criticized by a number of other Muslim scholars of the era.

During the time of Harun al-Rashid (786-809) the Muslims
built a library which contained both originals and
translations of almost any then known scientific work in Sanskrit,
Persian and Greek. His son, Caliph al-Mamun continued the tradition
of philosophy and science and established in Baghdad his Bayt
al-Hikmah (House of Wisdom), a library and academy.
Here the objective was to collect all scientific works, translate
them into Arabic and copy and bind them into books to preserve them.
No doubt much of the knowledge of the Greeks and others was preserved
in this way.

The greatest figure in Islamic philosophy is held to be Imam
al-Ghazali, who was a jurist, theologian, philosopher and
mystic. Born in 1058 in Khorasan, he came to have a high standard of
scholarship in religion and philosophy and gained an appointment as a
professor at the Nizamiyah University, which was one of the most
reputed institutions of learning at the time. Muslim philosophers of
his time had been following and developing many of the viewpoints of
Greek philosophy, including Neoplatonic philosophy, which led to
conflict with some Islamic teachings. Also at this time
the Sufi's began introducing heretical beliefs like avoiding
observances of obligatory prayers and other duties of Islam. Ghazali
sought to show the faults in both these trends.

In philosophy, Ghazali upheld the approach of mathematics and
exact sciences as essentially correct, but he adopted the
techniques of Aristotelian logic and the Neoplatonic procedqres and
used these as tools to show the flaws in the then prevalent
Aristotelianism and excessive rationalism.. In contrast to some of
the Muslim philosophers like Farabi, he portrayed the inability of
reason to comprehend the absolute and the infinite. Reason could not
transcend the finite and was limited to the observation of the
relative, he argued. Also, several Muslim philosophers had the
opinion that the universe was finite in space but infinite in time.
Ghazali argued that infinite time was related to infinite space. He
was able to create a balance between religion and reason.

Ghazali wrote many books including Tuhafut al-Falasifa (The
Incoherence of the Philosophers) and Ihya al-Ulum al-Islamia
(The Revival of the Islamic Sciences). Ghazali's influence was deep.
His theological doctrines penetrated Europe and influenced Jewish and
Christian Scholasticism and Thomas Aquinas.

Other Muslims also wrote extensively on Creation, God,
Aristotelian thought, logic and developed systems of
jurisprudence and law. During this period especially, Islamic
philosophy was active in Spain and Morocco. These included
Ibn Bajjah who wrote Tadbir al-mutawahhid (Regimen of the Solitary)
where he discussed the perfect society built upon the inner
perfection of individuals within the society. Ibn Tufayl, a
physician and philosopher, followed with Hayy al Yaqzan (Living Son
of the Awake).

Another great philosopher was Ibn Rushd, the Qadi of Cordova,
a jurist, and interpreter of the Shair'ah. Ibn Rushd was a
rationalist and wrote about religion and philosophy. In his book
Kitab Fasl al- Makal, he wrote about the creation of the world,
Divine knowledge of particular things, and the future of the human
soul. He also wrote commentaries on Aristotle, to such an
extent that in the West he was known as "The Commentator" during the
Western Middle Ages and the Renaissance. He wrote an
answer to Al-Ghazali's works and wrote the Tahafut al tahafut
(Incoherence of the Incoherence). Ibn Rushd's influence on Medieval
and Renaissance European history is found to be greater than that of
his influence on the Islamic world.

Ibn Khaldun's (1332-1395) main contribution lies in
philosophy of history and sociology. He wanted to write a
world history aimed at analyzing historical events. The first volume
was known as the Muqaddimah . This monumental work identified
psychological, economic, environmental and social facts that
contributed to the advancement of human civilizations and the
currents of history as opposed to just the political context of
earlier writers.

In this context, he analyzed the dynamics of group
relationships and showed how group feelings, al-'Asabiyya,
give rise to the ascent of a new civilization and political power and
how, later on , its diffusion into a more general civilization
invited the beginning of a still new 'Asabiyya in its pure form. He
identified an almost rhythmic repetition of rise and fall in human
civilization and analyzed factors contributing to it. His
contribution to history is marked by the fact that, unlike most
earlier writers who interpreted history through the political
context, he emphasized environmental, sociological, psychological and
economic factors governing the apparent events. This revolutionized
the science of history and also laid the foundation of Umraniyat
(Sociology).

Lastly we come to the realm of the arts. The well known
Hadith "Allah is beautiful and He loves beauty" encouraged
Muslims to beautify the word of Allah through calligraphy and other
expressions. Islamic calligraphy began with the kufi styles, then
followed naskhi, thuluth, muhaqqiq, rayhani, and nasta'liq.
Calligraphy began as a direct response of the soul of Muslims
to the descent of the Quranic revelation.
Calligriphical art moved from beautifying the Quran and texts to
objects, houses and Mosques and eventually to Architecture.

Writes T.B. Irving on Islamic architecture, " ..few
civilizations have approached Islam's beauties in
architecture: her soaring minarets and spires, her fabled domes, her
cool corridors, all reflect the yearning of Muslims, who refusing to
find expression in natural depiction concentrate their energies on
buildings and their embellishment."

These embellishments included the calligraphic mosaics of
mosques, tombs and places through out Persia , India, Turkey,
Egypt, Morocco along with marble carving, plaster work, delicate
inlay and tile work. Muslims also evolved their own style of art,
while producing beautiful ceramic tiles, porcelain, pottery, plates,
bowls, tapestries and rugs, and lamps.

The defining elements of Islamic Architecture are many. The
use of the frame created organization and design..
Calligraphy was found in the decoration of almost every Islamic
building as well as many objects. Geometry become a major art form
by using the circle as a basis and generating patterns from
repetition, symmetry and changing scale to create unusual effects.
Reflected light was developed and multiplied with
the Muqarnas cells beneath domes, and they reflected and refracted
light.

Ceramic tiles and mirrors were added to use light and
increase them. Foliation including the classical vine and
scroll motifs gave rise to the abstract art of the arabesque.
Lastly, water was an essential element, whether flowing
through palaces in India or in fountains found in the inner
courtyards of Spain. Islamic architecture influenced the widespread
use of the niche form for Mihrab, tombstone, door, window or
decorative feature, lamps, domes, mosaics, geometric shapes,
patterns, intertwining leaf motifs and designs, fountains, gardens,
and courtyards.

Islamic art took from the civilizations surrounding it and
also impacted them. The Chinese were influenced in their
vases and carpets. Medieval Europe were influenced in their arts and
showed it from their adoption of arches to their illuminations of
Latin and Hebrew manuscripts. Of course the epitome of
Islamic art can be seen in the greatest Islamic masterpieces such as
the grand mosques of Cordova in Spain, the Taj Mahal in India, and
the Blue mosque in Turkey. The works of these Muslim artists have
become prototypes and models on which other artists and craftsmen
patterned their own works, or from which they derived the inspiration
for related work.

Thus the contributions of early Islam was so rich, so
voluminous and so varied that it defies this brief
descriptive survey. These Muslims drew from their pre-Islamic
traditions, plus those of the civilizations they came into contact
with and they absorbed what went with their beliefs and rejected what
did not. Over the centuries they continued to develop and partake in
the pursuit of knowledge with no hesitation. The destruction of
Baghdad and the Mongol invasions did not even hinder them from
learning and elaborating on the arts and sciences, despite the great
destruction of their books and knowledge.

However, what is most important is not the discoveries
themselves of the early Muslims but the methodology and kind
of thought behind what produced them. Inspired by the truth of
Islam, by strong faith and by Quranic enjoinders to ponder, think and
discover the world did they lead the world in doing so. Only with
this verve to relate the outward world of science, art and philosophy
to inner spirituality and religion can we again reach the heights of
the Golden Age of Islam.

[ A timetable of contributions:]

- Chuzini, Abu al-Fath al-; physicist.
- Ibn Hisham; biographer, historian.
- Ibn Labban, Kushyar.
- Ibn Turk, `Abd al-Hamid; mathematician.
- Ibn al-Muqtafi, Abu al-Fadl Ja`far; astronomer.
- 767 Ibn Ishaq; biographer, historian.
721- 815 Jabir ibn Hayyan, Abu Musa (Geber); alchemist.
780- 850 Khwarizmi, Muhammad ibn Musa al-; astronomer,
mathematician.
82?- 861 Farghani, Abu al-`Abbas al- (Afragamus); astronomer,
geographer.
- 870 Kindi, Abu Yusuf Ya`qub ibn Ishaq al-Sabah al-;
philosopher.
828- 889 Ibn Qutaybah; historian, philologist, theologian.
826- 901 Ibn Qurra, Thabit; mathematician.
865- 923 Razi, al- (Rhazes); alchemist, philosopher, physician.
839- 923 Tabari, al-; historian, theologian.
858- 929 Battani, al- (Albatenius); astronomer, mathematician.
870- 950 Farabi, al- (Alfarabicus); philosopher, poet.
940- 998 Abu al-Wafa'; astronomer, mathematician.
-1008 Ibn Yunus; astronomer, mathematician.
936-1013 Abu al-Qasim (Albucasis); physician.
-1029 Karkhi, al-; mathematician.
930-1030 Ibn Miskawayh; historian, philosopher.
980-1037 Ibn Sina, Abu `Ali al-Husayn (Avicenna); philosopher,
physician.
965-1039 Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen); mathematician, physicist.
973-1048 Biruni, al-; historian, mathematician, physicist.
1058-1111 Ghazali, Abu Hamid al- (Algazel); philosopher.
1048-1131 Khayyam, `Umar (Omar Khayyam); astronomer, mathematician,
poet.
1095-1138 Ibn Bajjah (Avempace); philosopher.
1075-1144 Zamakhshari, al-; philologist, theologian.
1090-1162 Ibn Zuhr, Abu Marwun `Abd al-Malik (Avenzoar, Abumeron);
physician.
1100-1185 Ibn Tufayl; philosopher, physician.
1126-1198 Ibn Rushd, Abu al-Walid (Averroes); philosopher,
physician.
1135-1204 Ibn Maymun (Maimonides); Jewish philosopher, physician.
1201-1274 Tusi, Nasir al-Din al-; astronomer, mathematician,
philosopher.
-1288 Ibn al-Nafis; physician.
-137? Ibn al-Shatir; astronomer.
1332-1406 Ibn Khaldun, Abu Zayd `Abd al-Rahman; historian,
sociologist.
-1436 Kashi, al-; mathematician.
1445-1505 Suyuti, al-; historian, philologist, theologian.

Cool!

Post: #3947

I┴∀NIW∩˥˥Iʞ  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Apparently not one christian had the ball to read info in this link since the historian have all the required proofs and his in a massive lawsuit against the Vatican.

http://www.luigicascioli.eu/traduzioni/en_proceso1.htm

We all know they are scare to read real hard facts.

The Romans and others were trying to kill the Christians. They had no reason to lie.


Here is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica concerning the testimony of the many independent secular accounts of Jesus of Nazareth: "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf...2219500475

CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.

"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text...apter%3D44

What this passage reveals and how it confirms the Biblical account:

-Jesus did exist

-Jesus was the founder of Christianity

-Jesus was put to death by Pilate

-Christianity originated in Judea (With Jesus)

-Christianity later spread to Rome (Through the Apostles and Evangelists)

Because of his position as a professional historian and not as a commentator Tacitus referenced government records over Christian testimony. There is not a surviving copy of Tacitus' Annals that does not contain this passage. There is no verifiable evidence of tampering of any kind in this passage. It simply provides evidence of Jesus' existence (a topic not debated at this point in history) and not his divinity.

GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/s...rolfe.html

THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak." Chronography XVIII, 47
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf0...367_668991

PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being killed for their refusal to deny their faith.

"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..." Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan
http://www.tyrannus.com/pliny_let.html

Though Pliny states some of the accused denied the charges, a recurring theme in the correspondence between Pliny and Trajan is the willingness of the true believer to die for Christ. This would hardly be reasonable if they knew He never existed!

Pliny states the Christians worshiped Christ as if he were a god. This indicates one who would not normally be considered a god, such as a human who was exalted to divine status. Also, the early Christians would have been in the position to know if Jesus was a historical figure or not.

CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.) Celsus was a second century Roman author and avid opponent of Christianity. He went to great lengths to disprove the divinity of Jesus yet never denied His actual existence. Unfortunately for Celsus, he sets himself up for criticism by mimicking the exact accusations brought against Jesus by the pharisees which had already been addressed and refuted in the New Testament.

On Jesus' Miracles: "Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain magical powers... He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god... It was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed... Let us believe that these cures, or the resurrection, or the feeding of a multitude with a few loaves... These are nothing more than the tricks of jugglers... It is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of miraculous power..."

Not only does Celsus confirm Jesus' existence, he also tries to debate the source of Jesus' miracles. Like the pharisees of Jesus' day, Celsus tries to dismiss these miracles as both demonic possession and cheap parlor tricks. However, he is clearly grasping at straws: On one hand Celsus accuses Jesus of performing magic learned in Egypt, then later states it is by the power of possession, then states the miracles were not really miracles at all but were illusionary tricks performed by a deceiver, then finally states the miracles never occurred!

On the Virgin Birth: "Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her hands. His mother had been turned out by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a Roman soldier named Panthera]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard."

Celsus acknowledges Jesus' birth and existence but does not accept the concept of a virgin conception. He tries to dismiss Mary's premarital pregnancy as the result of an affair she had with a Roman soldier. Strangely enough, there is a very similar passage in the Jewish Talmud which makes the same accusation. This gives us reason to believe Celsus might have referenced Jewish sources for some of his arguments.

On the Apostles: "Jesus gathered around him ten or eleven persons of notorious character... tax-collectors, sailors, and fishermen... He was deserted and delivered up by those who had been his associates, who had him for their teacher, and who believed he was the savior and son of the greatest God... Those who were his associates while alive, who listened to his voice, and enjoyed his instructions as their teacher, on seeing him subjected to punishment and death, neither died with nor for him... but denied that they were even his disciples, lest they die along with Him."

Celsus' intentions were to argue that if the disciples really believed Jesus was the Son of God, they would not have forsaken Him at His arrest. Instead, he only ends up confirming the Biblical account! The Bible tells us when Jesus was arrested, the apostles denied being His followers. It was only upon Jesus' resurrection they understood the spiritual principles concerning Jesus' crucifixion and boldly went out to preach the Gospel. Celsus is also wrong with his statement, they neither died with nor for him. We are told by early historians all but one of the remaining apostles were killed for their faith.

On Jesus' Divinity: "One who was a God could neither flee nor be led away a prisoner... What great deeds did Jesus perform as God? Did he put his enemies to shame or bring to an end what was designed against him? No calamity happened even to him who condemned him... Why does he not give some manifestation of his divinity, and free himself from this reproach, and take vengeance upon those who insult both him and his Father?"

Celsus ridicules Jesus for the exact same reasons the pharisees of His time ridiculed Him- if Jesus was the Son of God, why didn't He save Himself from the cross? Neither Celsus nor the pharisees understood the spiritual implications of Jesus' death to atone for sin. Celsus also asks why no judgment came upon the Jews but history shows shortly after His death Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans, the Jewish temple was destroyed, and the Jewish people were dispersed for almost 2,000 years!

John the Baptist "If any one predicted to us that the Son of God was to visit mankind, he was one of our prophets, and the prophet of our God? John, who baptized Jesus, was a Jew."

Celsus confirms Jesus' baptism by John but asserts that John was the only one who actually prophesied His coming- not the Old Testament Messianic prophecies.

On the Crucifixion: "Jesus accordingly exhibited after His death only the appearance of wounds received on the cross, and was not in reality so wounded as He is described to have been."

In this statement, Celsus confirms Jesus' death by crucifixion although he claims the only wounds Jesus received were those inflicted by the crucifixion (thus denying any previous torture had taken place). But not even history offers Celsus the benefit of a doubt as floggings were the standard form of torture given to victims prior to crucifixion. Celsus contradicts himself yet again when he later states Jesus was probably never even crucified but instead had an impostor die in His place!

LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (120 - ~180 A.D.) Lucian was a second century Greek satirist and rhetorician who scornfully describes his views of early Christianity. Though he ridicules the Christians and their Christ, his writings confirm Jesus was executed via crucifixion and that He was the founder of Christianity.

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... It was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers from the moment they are converted and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws..." The Death of Peregrinus 11-13
http://www.suite101.com/course/print_les...327/1606/3

What this passage reveals and how it confirms the Biblical account:

-Jesus did exist

-Jesus was the founder of Christianity

-Jesus was worshiped by His followers

-Jesus suffered death by crucifixion

MARA BAR-SERAPION (Post 70 A.D) Mara Bar-Serapion of Syria penned this letter from prison to his son. Though it is obvious he does not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, he does mention aspects of Jesus' life. There is some criticism regarding this passage but it must be noted nothing in Serapion's letter contradicts what we know about Jesus.

"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: The Athenians died of hunger. The Samians were overwhelmed by the sea. The Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good. He lived on in the teachings of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good. He lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good. He lived on in the teaching which He had given."

How do we know this passage is a reference to Jesus?

-He was a wise King (Jesus was mocked by the Romans as The King of the Jews, the messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus referred to the coming Messiah as a king, Christian believers believed Jesus was their promised spiritual king, and Jesus was born from the royal line of King David).

-He was Jewish (Jesus was a Galilean Jew).

-He was executed (Jesus was crucified after the Jews appealed to Pilate to have Him crucified).

-After His death Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed (This occurred in 70 A.D., after Jesus' death).

-The Jews were dispersed after His death (The Jews abandoned Judea after the Roman attack of 70 A.D.).

-He was a teacher (Jesus was a rabbi/teacher).

-He lived on after death in His teachings (Jesus and His teachings founded the Christian faith).

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.) Josephus was a first century pharisee and historian of both priestly and royal ancestry who provided important insight into first-century Judaism. Josephus was born only three years after the crucifixion of Jesus, making him a credible witness to the historicity of Jesus.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. For he appeared to them alive again the third day. As the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribes of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities XVIII, 3:2
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/taofj10.txt

Jews have no reason to embelish towards Christianity.

We'll now examine the second passage given to us by Josephus.

"So Ananus assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned." Antiquities XX 9:1
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/taofj10.txt

Even if we dismiss the disputed words in Josephus' Testimonium, we still see he testifies to a number of things in the above two passages:

-Jesus lived in the first century

-He performed wonderful works (miracles)

-Some believed Jesus to be the Christ

-He was a teacher

-He had many followers

-He was tried by Pilate

-He was crucified

-He was the founder of Christianity

-James was the brother of Jesus

THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD The Babylonian Talmud is an ancient record of Jewish history, laws, and rabbinic teachings compiled throughout the centuries. Though it does not accept the divinity of Jesus, it confirms the belief He was hanged (an idiom for crucifixion) on the eve of the Passover.

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (Jesus) [Some texts: Yeshu/Jesus the Nazarene] was hanged [crucified]. Forty days before the execution, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."

CLEMENT OF ROME ( - 98 A.D.) Clement was a bishop of Rome. He was eventually martyred in approximately 98 A.D. Clement was a first century apostolic author which gives credence to his first-hand account of early Christianity. In the passage below, Clement confirms the ministry of the disciples and some of the basic tenets of early Christianity.

"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and being fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God will full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH ( - ~100 A.D) Ignatius was a Bishop of Antioch reported to have been appointed to his position by Peter of whom he was a disciple. He is also believed to be a disciple of Paul and John. Ignatius was arrested by the Romans and executed as a martyr in the arena. Even though his testimony would ultimately lead to his death, Ignatius was adamant about the things he witnessed. He reinforces early Christian beliefs in the letters he penned while in prison. Even when execution was imminent, Ignatius refused to recant his faith.

"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth. Who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe in Him."

"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh but Son of God by the Divine will and powered, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch... That He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection." Smyrneans, 1
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/IGNATIUS.htm

"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate. For these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope." Magnesians XI
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm

In regards to personal writings, Socrates, for example, exists only in the writings of his students. There is not a single document still in existence that contains his original works. If we apply the same logic with Socrates skeptics use to determine Jesus' historicity, we must assume Socrates was a figment of the imagination of his students. But if we are to accept Socrates as a historical figure based on four secondary accounts, we must also accept Jesus as a historical figure whose life was documented by His disciples, historians, and those who rejected His divine claims. When skeptics claim there is a difference between a man such as Socrates and Jesus, they would be absolutely correct- Jesus had more accounts written about Him.

AREN'T THE WRITINGS THAT REFER TO JESUS JUST HEARSAY ACCOUNTS?

Documenting the Gospels preserved the accounts for future generations but oral evangelism was the practical method in making the Gospel available to the current population. Whether the accounts were written the day after Jesus' ascension or 30 years later, the fact is they were still penned by either the original witnesses or during the lives of the original witnesses who could confront heretical accounts.

Jesus also concentrated His ministry in various provinces of Judea- not secular hubs of the ancient world like Rome or Alexandria. Christianity spread into the surrounding areas after the life of Jesus. I would be far more suspicious of a Roman historian writing an excerpt about Jesus in 30 A.D. rather approximately 95 A.D. when Christianity had reached Rome.

I purposely avoided using Biblical evidence to support the existence of Jesus because that would be "using the Bible to prove the Bible." Instead we focused this study on extrabiblical sources. However, early Christian historians and witnesses were unanimous in their accounts that several New Testament books were written by eye witnesses of both Jesus and the apostolic ministry. If these authors were indeed eye witnesses, we can believe they also provide evidence to the historicity of Jesus.

References:
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html
http://www.forerunner.com/realjesus/part1.html
http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html
http://www.leestrobel.com
Nazareth Inscription
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth_Inscription

The Jews have a mock gospel that paint Jesus as a sorcerer who stole the name of god from the temple to do magik. It's actually pretty interesting:

"A primary example of such mockery within Jewish sacred literature is the Toldoth Jesu, or “Generation of Jesus” - a copy of which resides in the Judaic Section of the Library of Congress.

The Toldoth Jesu was a frontline Jewish retort to the Christian gospel. Its comforting message made this mock gospel extremely popular with Jews for over a millennium. Persecuted by crusaders and the Inquisition, the Toldoth encourages Jews to laugh at Christ. In a fast moving, witty style, it glorifies Judas Iscariot and leads Jews to identify with him as a heroic figure.

In 1823, a Jewish Toldoth editor, Solomon Bennet, boasted that Jews still believed it as literally as Christians believe the New Testament. Even the 1905 Jewish Encyclopedia repeatedly refers to the Toldoth as an accurate representation of how historic Judaism has viewed both Christ and Judas.

The Toldoth and its derisive approach were discarded by Jewish apologists in the 20th century. But its content, as we shall see, is still on their lips. "

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/mocke...ition.html

Interesting!

Post: #3948

I consider myself a well versed practitioner of all major and ancient religions of the world.

I've set it up so I can't really lose by the strictest standards.

I've even explained how to make religious decisions in a careful way assessing all the possible risks and whatever.

The least risky religions are those that claim you'll be forgiven automatically or you'll be reincarnated or other things like that, and even though I also follow them they are not particularly crucial to follow since there is no risk really if one fails and they end up true.

The most risky religions are the eternal hellfire ones, and one can actually accomplish all of them successfully and safely.

For a religion that in its most basic form generally covers all religions I would suggest Islam, it covers the ancient worship practices from around the world, worships only the supreme power, and covers Christianity and Judaism pretty well too in their essential forms.

Islam denies the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, concepts that Jesus himself did not teach, but accepts Jesus as the Messiah born of the virgin Mary and believes (correctly) that the New Testament depicts Jesus as worshiping God rather than himself. So they accomplish following the way of Jesus and the Jews, and everyone else from the Zoroastrians to the Hindus (they don't do the fire rituals, but their worship of God is the same as the worship of Vishnu practiced by some devotees especially in ancient times).

If there is justice in the Universe, then one should act carefully and in an excellent fashion so that they can be credited for their good works.

If one says Jesus is God or the literal son of God or that God has 3 distinct manifestations then they are going against Islam which has hellfire as its punishment, and they are going against Judaism, and even ancient Vedic teachings, and Zoroastrian teachings, and the religions of the whole world largely, and thus are much more likely to lose horribly than to win, the odds stacked against them for such a claim.

Post: #3949

Taffyland and Marxgrad posts:

Can you make a larger list of laws you think are important?

The limitation of DP to 1 person to another 1 person might be objected to by some people as having an apparent religious grounding imposed by the law?

In business arrangements people can have multiple business partners.

I don't agree with polygamy or poly-amorous relationships but I don't think the law has a right to invade in such things as who or how many consenting partners one has in any kind of business including sexy business.

Ok, thats fine, but business partnerships can be unlimited? So what is the difference between domestic partnership and business partnership? Just that the domestic partner is the one person who you are partnered with for tax benefits while others don't receive that if they are also partnered but not in the domestic context?

What is the purpose of the domestic partnership law? Its a cool thread you made, I'm curious!

I want taffyland to protect all people under the law and thus either abolish any restrictions on domestic partnership (extending no tax benefits or advantages to any domestic partners, but the law extending to protect the rights of all partners and relationships no matter the number or context, thus if someone wants to have a million partners they receive no personal benefit from having so many or even one, but all are protected under the normal laws such as anti-rape, anti-abuse, obligation to children and care for impregnated, etc) or extend social benefits to all those partnered (I don't like that though for the tax reasons you mentioned).

Hmm...why doesn't every working individual pay taxes individually rather than having shared household taxes?

I think a whole slew of issues might be removed if every single individual who is working pays taxes that are actually deducted automatically from their paycheck rather than letting them try to be partnered up in large groups, they can have cultural marriages of any non violent or non forced sort, but that is only a personal issue like you said and otherwise a working individual is known through their personal tax and work record.

Also, I'd like the government to take taxes for the purpose of beautification of Taffyland, extending social benefits and health benefits to all working taxed citizens foremost, and the children of working taxed citizens next, and then the non working and their children with important emphasis on finding taxable work for them (hey maybe we can make children do labor too out of their education, they can write articles and get paid for it lol), and..........

So hopefully you agree with my recommendations for adjustments to Taffyland's laws?

Taffyland has government paid for public entertainment parks I think!

a portion of money from taxed labor income should go to the public entertainment of happiness industry where the government working with communities establishes parks and places for leisure and fun including possible amusement parks and entertainment parks. The workers at these parks work for the Ministry of Pleasure, dedicated to inducing psychological pleasure, athleticism, and education at the same time for the benefit of all citizens.

Right!?

I'm not sure donkey marriage should be allowed because the scientists of Taffyland have not yet been able to decipher Donkey language in any sensible form so that a donkey can not consent to such a marriage.

A man can marry a robot I think, a creation of his own that he has programmed, but a Donkey is an individual who can't say yes or no to a marriage, and Taffyland should extend its rights over animalkind to protect it from abuses such as forced sexual intercourse or brutal forced labor.

Ok, so a child can be forced into a marriage they dont consent to, but the child can't be molested even though the child is the husband or wife of the person. Seems semi ok at least.

I still think that every single individual working should be taxed individually and there should be no shared taxation ability, and non working people should not be taxed.

There should only be tax removed from labor paychecks, what else would you tax? I don't think there should be housing taxes, food taxes, or anything like that, but there can be taxation on sales perhaps as a kind of labor tax maybe, but it might be best to derive that tax from the overall business rather than each transaction but it doesnt matter to me much.

Taxation should have a simple and stable rate that doesn't fluctuate too often.

Marriage should be entirely a cultural practice like birthday parties, but I don't think there should be any form of civil marriage or domestic partnership or mutual taxation.

This is a great thread by the way,
I was just looking through the threads earlier thinking how much most of them seem to suck but this one is fun and intelligent!

1. In Taffyland there is an emphasis on Freedom and limited government and legal interference in social customs and norms. Therefor any sort of marriage can exist in Taffyland as a cultural custom with no legal interference (like a birthday party is not a legal event) BUT the basic laws of Taffyland must be maintained or else incidents can be reported to the justice department and trials and arrests can be made towards those who have injured or abused persons or animals and broken the laws of Taffyland.

2. I strongly recommend the complete removal of any incorporated or joint entities for the purpose of taxation, and instead believe it is most fair to have work available to all people, and taxes to be removed from labor within the boundaries of Taffyland. Each individual should be paid fairly and taxed moderately from their individual labor, and this right should extend to all individual work including the work of children under the protection of their parents. The accounts of every individual should be held in the Taffyland Central Bank, it can not be touched by the government or used in any way or stopped, but only the taxed money can be used by the government, and this can be considered a small government fee from labor and protection in the bank in order to protect the citizenry of Taffyland.

3. The basic laws of Taffyland are that every single individual, be they human or animal, has full rights of protection, legal recourse, fair trial focused on facts and legalities rather than opinions with a preference towards mercy and common sense...

Some laws include:
-Abuse or injury of any sort towards any persons or even property.
-The right to personal belongings purchased by income gained through labor which are protected and should not be stolen.
-The right to appeal to the government for help in finding taxable work.

-The right to sue individuals for damages, justice provided by legal experts looking only at the provided facts and legalities with no benefit gained from anyone "winning" or "losing" the case, thus the justices are paid by the government and there are no lawyers only legal experts like judges that work for the government and are given cases to review (these individuals have the most legal power in trials, but the trials should literally be blind with participants masked from each other and the judge with only facts provided. This is called Anonymous Legal Recourse and protects individuals from possible revenge and harassment or bias from the judge). It is illegal for a judge to know the individuals in the case, and any judge from around Taffyland can try a case no matter where the judge is living.

Though Taffyland has a preference towards limited and stable laws, it has a focus on preventing abuses from taking place, such as trying to exact damages from people in order to rob them of wealth and gain personal wealth. In a trial, when one is accused of damages they should be able to provide evidence for themselves against the accusations, and if this can not be done by the person due to some handicap or disability then a justice can be provided to speak on behalf of the person but is paid by the government not the individual.

I think if domestic partnerships are entirely abolished and every individual represents themselves and their labor and tax record is individual to them, a whole slew of troubles can be avoided. Everyone should have their own bank account, no ability for a shared bank account, no ability for a shared income, decisions can be shared obviously but the payments will be by individuals, thus all records are kept of all transactions making such things entirely the individuals responsibility. I think this is most fair and I strongly recommend the dismantling of legal partnerships in any form protected by the law or the government.

If a group wants to work together, they can each pay a certain amount from their bank accounts and this transaction will be recorded and thus noted in case of a request for legal reimbursement but there will thus be no confusion regarding who spent what or what belongs to who legally.

In the case of shared purchases, if two individuals or more pool in money for an item, the amount each pooled will be recorded in their central bank transaction record and thus the justices can make a decision based on that information.

The central bank of Taffyland is the main super database of the nation, controlled by the government and not a private institution (there are no private banks, though there can be investment firms that are given money to invest wisely and gain income which they return to the investors).

The central bank of Taffyland or CBT/CBoT/CBOT is a central computer which keeps a record of every individual who is part of the legal system of Taffyland (working citizens). In order to work, you must have an account with the CBOT which is basically the register of all your financial transactions, and income.

Income that is protected under the law is given directly to the CBOT account of the individual, with a small percentage removed on all income towards taxes, automatically. This completely removes the problem of "tax evasion" and "auditing" or any of that stuff, its all computerized, goes right to the account, the taxes are automatically removed so the people of the land feel that they are basically practically not taxed at all, they never hear about taxes since they dont have to file for taxes its already taken from their transactions through CBOT.

CBOT thus also keeps a record of employers and their payments and the government has full access to all this information for the protection of the individual and to protect individuals from unfair payments.

Since all records are kept safely in the CBOT, and the CBOT is funded by the government (which is funded by taxed labor), the justices are given access to CBOT records when in a case that deals with financial issues, and can also give their legal judgments to the CBOT which then will shift whatever income into anothers account if that is the judgment, though the judge may not even know the names of the individuals involved in the cases, perhaps only being able to see their ID number or something to protect from bias and prejudice which is rampant in the legal systems of the world today for various reasons.

People can spend their income freely, but, I think it may be a wise social policy to restrict a certain amount of money that the individual cannot spend if they reach that limit, this is a social protection limit and basically the person might receive a warning from the bank before they can spend the last amount of their money and may need to call in to give permission or whatever, though the CBOT and the Government want people to not be entirely without an income or any money.

The government provides social benefit to those who are entirely poor, but not in the way that welfare gets raped by some people, the government places an emphasis on finding taxable work in whatever way is possible for those who are poor.

As for the mentally ill who can not survive in society, they should be cared for and protected by the government Ministry of Health/Care while those who are ill but can recover should be moved towards recovery and work that they can safely do.

As for jails, they are limited to only the criminally insane (which is all violent criminals who can't be trusted in society) but work should be done to help them to recover, and if they can't their labor in prison should be paid for and taxed, just like any other labor. The idea of forced jail labor that is free labor and not paid for is a horrid crime against humanity, even if the criminal is a sick murderer. All labor, no matter what the form, is paid for by those receiving the benefit of the labor to the CBOT account which exists even for criminals.

The emphasis in Taffyland should be towards taxable work along with freedom and pleasure, a society based on inducing a happy life for those who chose to pay the government through their taxed labor and those who are born into Taffyland.

All people living within the borders of Taffyland are protected by the law, thus there is no illegal immigration, and anyone who works becomes a CBOT account holder and thus a recorded member of Taffyland who has the extensive rights of having their transactions and income protected and monitored by the government/law.

The Ministry of Education has the responsibility of providing factual information as well as training in fact finding and memory to enhance cultural literacy on an international level, thus the children and adults of Taffyland should be moved towards being the most enlightened and informed people on Earth.

The Ministry of Pleasure, Education, Health, and whatever other departments of the Government should each have their television stations focused on providing information and entertainment for free, where business owners can also pay for limited and fair advertising and there can also be a freedom of television shows from around the world provided for free by the government if that is desired by the people (I personally think the TV of today is an evil propaganda machine around the world, so I think that from the education and onwards people should be pressured to provide factual information and be reminded to be skeptical of outside unsourced news by learning the nature of propaganda and critical thinking exercises to realize how easy it is to be lied to and deceived, thus people should be in the habit from childhood onwards of researching due to the way the education system trained them).

The main coursebook of Taffyland should be THE BOOK OF KNOWLEDGE a book read year after year, abolishing the compartmentalization of the education system that exists in most parts of the world today to give an integrated knowledge of everything all at once, for example science, history, etymology, math, all provided in an integrated fashion, the book of knowledge doesn't change from year to year, but is reread for refreshing purposes, and is basically like a book of wikipedia but with each section covering multiple aspects of knowledge rather than separate "History books" "Psychology books" "Science books", thus knowledge is treated as an overall thing rather than a knowledge in this or that. This should work to produce the most culturally literate and intelligent children and adults in the world, the material is not formatted to reduce information for younger children, so that children are taught the same massive amount of international information as they grow up (also advanced words should be used even for the youngest ages, since language is language and studies have shown even the youngest children can learn language easily and understand concepts especially if they are given the training from an early age, in ancient cultures they used to give kids the same information everyone else received).

Even though the Book of Knowledge with its integrated style is read year after year, and its integrated exercises practiced by children, the yearly course work is to encourage children to create their own books of knowledge full of sourced and researched information that can actually be sold at a later date by the children and to produce other works that can be utilized by individuals who wish to attain an income at some point. Though knowledge and cultural literacy is the emphasis of the education department, the same course books should provide the knowledge required for living and working in the world through the integrated system so that people are not left ignorant.

The education and re-education should perhaps not stop at any part of life, but the Labor department should make sure perhaps (not through tests but just through policy) that people are kept at a relatively good level of knowledge and educated about things if they choose to be, though there would likely be more pressure on children to be educated.

Parents should also be pressured to keep the minds of their children active and agile, and the whole culture of the society of Taffyland should be towards intelligent dialogue rather than a slow retardation brought on by the corrupt media like in the nations outside of Taffyland.

There is obviously no national religion of Taffyland and everyone is free to practice their religions and have their opinions, but the official stance of Taffyland and its symbolic religion through its policies should be Truth/Fact/Honesty, Justice/Legal Equality/Fairness, Common Sense/Reasoning/Careful Logic, tempered with Mercy/Compassion/Empathy/Understanding/Care/Love...

Justice through Truth tempered with Mercy.

Alright, by symbolic religion I just meant that policy should be directed towards Justice through Truth tempered with Mercy but that should not be an official symbolic religion or ever called a symbolic religion, I was just making that statement in general.

Taffyland is completely devoid of a government enforced or benefited religion, no social or tax benefits are provided to any religious organization, and all religions and belief systems are allowed to be practiced as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others or break the laws of Taffyland.

Justice through Truth tempered with Mercy is not a religion or symbolic religion in any literal sense, but is just a general theme and policy for the behavior in all government departments. That there should be an emphasis on accurate and well sourced information to make sure justice is as clear cut and fair as possible but with a tinge of Mercy so as not to be too cold and calculating in exacting penalties and justice, so there should be an element of compassion.

Tell me more about Marxgrad! I think Taffyland and Marxgrad might be pretty similar.

I'm not sure how you want Marxgrad to be run, but the difference in Marxgrad might be slightly different property rights, but not really...

Marxgrad would have people having individual property, but the government would take great care and consideration towards fairness and equality between people.

The CBOT would be replaced by the CASM/CASoM/CASOM which is the Central Administrative System of Marxgrad, its the same as the central bank essentially, it the system by which labor credits are doled out to people, the labor credits can be renamed merit credits or MMC Marxgrad Merit Credits, which employers are required to give for all labor in fairness as determined by the MA Marxgrad Administration.

In Marxgrad, the government provides completely for the people and all work is focused on enhancing Marxgrad rather than for personal gain BUT...the MMC one gains can be used for the purpose of entertainment and the purchase of personal items or approved modifications made to homes and things of beauty and whatever, while those can also be provided by the government for free, when it comes to things of personal preference the MMC is what one provides for purchases one makes of a nature that is personal and not provided by the government.

If a person has no MMC it means they are not working and thus there is no merit given to them, but they are still protected by the social care system of the MA.

I'd need to know more about what you want for Marxgrad though.

The same BOOK OF KNOWLEDGE and non compartmentalized education system would exist, there would be open training centers for anyone who wishes to learn and begin work at a new job to gain MMC.

A person can live in Marxgrad with no MMC and no work, the government providing everything for them, though they are restricted by their lack of MMC and can't really purchase personal modifications to their life if they are on the bare minimum of the government and people are encouraged to work to gain MMC and for the benefit of Marxgrad. For non working individuals, there are training centers and programs, and also options for work at home and other things like that.

Taffyland and Marxgrad would be pretty similar with just a difference in language of administrative bodies and terms that would be the main difference.

All information is free, there is free entertainment, free food, free living, free everything, but if one wishes to modify their life they require the use of MMC and the possible modifications are still those approved by the government of Marxgrad to ensure fairness and safety and other things.

All labor efforts work towards the beautification and constant sustenance of Marxgrad to provide for all the people, and here is another thing...

As often happens in such systems, the Administrators become corrupt due to their soft asses.

Anyone who wishes to work for MA must be entirely involved in the hard labor processes of their departments, and can not simply sit on their butts dictating policy while the people slave in the fields. The MA in favor of compassion towards the people will all be made to suffer foremost, thus MA positions should be the most tasking but thus closest to the people.

You can not be the Farming policy administrator if you are not a farmer with calloused hands who works the land personally. You can not dictate to the department of entertainment if you are not one who is familiar with entertainment and does not spend MMC on a vast amount.

Basically, whoever works in the administrative areas has to be one who works themselves in those areas, thus being best able to know what is fair and unfair and see the problems of the people directly, no distant government sitting far away and dictating policy from behind a computer screen and a desk. Only those who truly wish to help the plight of the workers would join the MA, since the MA becomes an extra responsibility for the individuals who are made to work at the toughest jobs and also interact with the MA, but the MA is not an extremely hard job, its mainly working with the people and with their input making policy, the policy, if the MA worker reduces policy for himself, all the others work is reduced too.

You can check my posts for what I've already written about education.

After we get everything settled for Taffyland and maybe even a constitution, and one for Marxgrad too, we can make a NATIONSTATES thread for LOP and people can post their governments in there with the information we've developed through this thread once its made in a solid and careful final form through discussion in here.

Any worker in Taffyland received a CBOT account and when one leaves Taffyland their CBOT account remains even if they leave, and whatever money they didn't pull out will stay safe in the account without being charged, only labor is charged and perhaps transactions and the charges go towards all the benefits provided by Taffyland and the payment of workers in government jobs. Since all this is automatic and part of the CBOT processing, nobody feels taxed on any level really, there would be no tax forms to file or anything like that, it would all be automatic and in the background of transactions.

Anyone from Taffyland entering Marxgrad enters the care of the MA, which requires no income at all. This makes it somewhat difficult to leave Marxgrad unless one converts MMC into purchasing money of some sort which should be an available option in Marxgrad so as not to unreasonably restrict the human right of departure from a land if one desires.

In Marxgrad there is no taxation at all, but all labor is directly for the overall benefit of Marxgrad, thus all labor works as the tax of Marxgrad, while Marxgrad reimburses these efforts with Marxgrad Merit Credits (MMC), which can be used to purchase extra items beyond the means provided by free social benefit and also to purchase money in order to travel and use outside of Marxgrad.

I think there is not a thread on a forum I've enjoyed more than this, writing this stuff is way fun for me!

Yeah, I agree!

Both Marxgrad and Taffyland sound good to me!

Marxgrad believes in beautification of the country among other things for the purposes of a happy civilization, one of the problems that might occur is that of arbitrary labor due to overpopulation, so there should be some care taken in making sure there is always something for people to do in Marxgrad in order that they can earn MMC. If it becomes too much of an issue, then a limitation can be imposed on births like they did in China, though I'd prefer if it didn't come to that and things were managed well almost automatically. Citizenship may also require limitations if it exceeds the capacity or labor availability of Marxgrad, but again in its initial stages this shouldnt be an issue and if things are managed well from the outset this may never arise as a major problem. Again, there should be no enforced marriage restrictions but those should be in the realm of individual cultural practices which can be maintained as long as they do not overstep any legal bounds.

A person only benefits in the Marxgrad system by gaining MMC, nobody benefits from having children or a wife, but one can have these for their own pleasure, the children born are under the care of the MA ultimately for extended social benefit while anything extra can be purchased with MMC.

For the most part, life in Marxgrad would appear normal and pleasant, transactions would mainly be computerized to prevent any troubles or fraud, and the main policy of the MA is to make the country pretty much utopian and self sufficient for those who exist in it. If restrictions are imposed on the amount of children one can have, it may be that MMC can be used to purchase the ability to have an extra child or something, that means the person has earned enough merit through work for Marxgrad and society at large that they are permitted to have a child, while those who do nothing for Marxgrad might be more restricted in this regard (but this is only in cases of a population emergency which should be avoided from the earliest days of Marxgrad).

Once Marxgrad is perfected and self sufficient, surplus labor can be used for expansion of Marxgrad.

What is the expansion of Marxgrad? It is not military conquest, even though the population receives training in self defense and defense equipment training in some areas of the government if an emergency occurs.

The expansion of Marxgrad would be through the formation of MA operated organizations that leave the country and work towards expanding Marxgrad through beautifying and assisting communities outside of Marxgrad but nearby, and if those people so wish to be included in the Marxgrad government system, they can be (without infringing on the property rights of whatever nation they belong to).

The surplus labor would be used as an expansive charity work force that would not only cause Marxgrad to gain popularity among more and more people, but may encourage others to promote Marxgrad styled policies in their own governments without trying to impose such on people through military conquest.

The expansion of Marxgrad would thus be through charity work and beautification, where places beyond Marxgrad would be transformed through charity to reflect the compassionate and beautiful spirit of Marxgrad thus making in at least appearance the expansive image of Marxgrad through populations that are assisted, land areas and communities that are beautified, and things like that. This is done only with surplus if the government and workforce/labor economy of Marxgrad is stable enough to permit it.

Yeah, if the system is built well it should run smoothly as it grows! One should think carefully, running possibilities through their minds to make sure all ends are covered nicely.

Post: #3950

Israel means "wrestles with El" El is 'lh pronounced Uhluh.

Amen is indeed the same as Uhluh, but it is the Upper Egyptian term for the omnipresent God as compared to the semitic language term Uhluh, but it refers to the same Ultimate God that is omnipresent and active everywhere, controller of all the netjer, bodiless and pure, pervading everywhere.

Isis means Throne and is a representation of the dominion and authority of God as well as that of the Pharoah and Kings.

Ra means Manifest, while Amun means hidden, Amun-Ra is the Hidden one who makes manifest, who is Hidden yet manifest through the "visible" netjer (the powers of nature).

The Librarian  Wrote:

Isis represents the little blip in the sky known as Venus. Ra is of course a Sun God. El is the father of the Gods: Saturn, Satan or Kronos. Amun/Amen is Jupiter. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

I'm not, everything I said is accurate. You can look it up yourself on wikipedia for example. Isis means throne and represents the authority or throne of the Pharoah for example. Everything else I said was accurate too. Amun means what I said it means, and so did everything else. The information is widely available. I'm not familiar with Amun from Egypt being associated with the planet Jupiter at any point, or Saturn having anything to do with the term Satan.

What you're perhaps thinking of as "simplicity" is just plainly incorrect information that misrepresents history and historical understands as they are written down.

I don't like when people mess with words, history, and other things and thus give people false impressions about things. The "sun is son" silliness is one of the worst, since its so ridiculous to connect words based on sound in modern English, totally disregarding all history which is the habit of people like Acharya S. and the Zeitgeist people.

The older western books from the 1800s are usually actually pretty much not as accurate as contemporary information and updated information. There is lots of stupid and ignorant stuff in even pretty recent books about stuff on subjects that are much better understood today through further discovery and study. Everything I stated is accurate, it is pretty well understood among those familiar with etymology not to just think words mean the same things if they sound similar in English. There is history behind all this stuff. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you by pointing out various things that I thought might help you out if possible. You can read my posts again carefully to see that everything I said was accurate and based around serious consideration of etymology (word history and usage).

The information I posted in the thread is accurate! If you wish to find the information outside of wikipedia you can, but of course FS may have altered large portions of the internet to conform to his view that the words "son" and "sun" don't mean the same thing just because they sound similar in modern English pronunciation.

What you quoted is not saying the word in italics as "sun" meant "sun".

I even showed you the etymology in an earlier post.

son (n.) Look up son at Dictionary.com
O.E. sunu "son," from P.Gmc. *sunuz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. sunu, O.N. sonr, Dan. søn, Swed. son, M.Du. sone, Du. zoon, O.H.G. sunu, Ger. Sohn, Goth. sunus "son"), from PIE *sunu-/*sunyu- (cf. Skt. sunus, Gk. huios, Avestan hunush, Armenian ustr, Lith. sunus, O.C.S. synu, Rus., Pol. syn "son"), from root *su- "to give birth" (cf. Skt. sauti "gives birth," O.Ir. suth "birth, offspring"). Sonny as a familiar form of address to one younger or inferior is from 1870. Son of _____ as the title of a sequel to a book or movie is recorded from 1929.

sun (n.) Look up sun at Dictionary.com
O.E. sunne, from P.Gmc. *sunnon (cf. O.N., O.S., O.H.G. sunna, M.Du. sonne, Du. zon, Ger. Sonne, Goth. sunno), from PIE *s(u)wen- (cf. Avestan xueng "sun," O.Ir. fur-sunnud "lighting up"), alternative form of root *saewel- "to shine, sun" (see Sol). O.E. sunne was fem., and the fem. pronoun was used until 16c.; since then masc. has prevailed. The empire on which the sun never sets (1630) originally was the Spanish, later the British. To have one's place in the sun (1680s) is from Pascal's "Pensées"; the German imperial foreign policy sense (1897) is from a speech by von Bülow.

Satan Look up Satan at Dictionary.com
proper name of the supreme evil spirit in Christianity, O.E. Satan, from L.L. Satan (in Vulgate, in O.T. only), from Gk. Satanas, from Heb. satan "adversary, one who plots against another," from satan "to show enmity to, oppose, plot against," from root s-t-n "one who opposes, obstructs, or acts as an adversary." In Septuagint (Gk.) usually translated as diabolos "slanderer," lit. "one who throws (something) across" the path of another (see devil), though epiboulos "plotter" is used once.

In biblical sources the Hebrew term the satan describes an adversarial role. It is not the name of a particular character. Although Hebrew storytellers as early as the sixth century B.C.E. occasionally introduced a supernatural character whom they called the satan, what they meant was any one of the angels sent by God for the specific purpose of blocking or obstructing human activity. [Elaine Pagels, "The Origin of Satan," 1995]

Satanist is attested from 1550s, applied by their enemies to Protestant sects.

Saturn Look up Saturn at Dictionary.com
O.E. Sætern "Italic god," also "most remote planet" (then known), from L. Saturnus, Italic god of agriculture, possibly from Etruscan. Derivation from L. serere (pp. satus) "to sow" is said to be folk-etymology. Identified with Gk. Kronos, father of Zeus. Also the alchemical name for lead (late 14c.). In Akkadian, the planet was kaiamanu, lit. "constant, enduring," hence Heb. kiyyun, Arabic and Pers. kaiwan "Saturn."

Lucifer Look up Lucifer at Dictionary.com
O.E. Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from L. Lucifer "morning star," lit. "light-bringing," from lux (gen. lucis) "light" (see light (n.)) + ferre "carry" (see infer). Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its use in Bible to translate Gk. Phosphoros, which translates Heb. Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv:12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [KJV] Because of the mention of a fall from Heaven, the verse was interpreted by Christians as a reference to Satan, even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (cf. Isaiah xiv:4). Lucifer match "friction match" is from 1831. Adjectival forms include Luciferian, Luciferine, Luciferous. There was a noted Bishop Lucifer of Cagliari in Sardinia in the 4th century, regarded locally as a saint.

________________

These words come from a variety of different places, the similarity in which they are pronounced in english has nothing to do with their meaning and does not mean the people who used them and were unfamiliar with modern English (which did not exist at the times these words in their original forms were in use) did not connect "Saturn" with "Satan" and "Sun" with "Son" or even "Lucifer" with "Satan" until much later when a Christian scribe took a reference translated in the Latin Bible as "Lucifer" in Isaiah to be a reference to Satan's fall from Heaven when it was actually talking about a Babylonian King. In the Greek Bible the words translated as "Son" in English are pais and huios, which are not connected to the Greek word for the Sun even if they sound similar to it, just how the word for "Sun" has a different etymology than the word "Son".

The Librarian  Wrote:

When you worship on Sunday, you are praising the Sun.
When you worship on Saturday, you are praising Saturn.
When you worship on Friday, you are praising Venus.
If anyone worships on Monday, they are praising the Moon.
If you say Amen at the end of a hymn you are praising Jupiter.
Steeples, Obelisks, and Minarets are pointers to the sky. They are used by standing at a certain place on the ground and looking up at them them to track the position of the stars and planets (angels and gods).

Nice picture, but that isn't right! The term "amen" is semitic and does not have the same meaning as the term often transliterated as "Amun" but can also be transliterated as "Yamanu".

Here:

amen Look up amen at Dictionary.com
Old English, from L.L. amen, from Ecclesiastical Gk. amen, from Hebrew amen "truth," used adverbially as an expression of agreement (e.g. Deut. xxvii:26, I Kings i:36; cf. Modern English verily, surely, absolutely in the same sense), from Semitic root a-m-n "to be trustworthy, confirm, support." Used in Old English only at the end of Gospels, otherwise translated as Soðlic! or Swa hit ys, or Sy! As an expression of concurrence after prayers, it is recorded from early 13c.
(Often used as an affirmative "so be it!")

Jupiter Look up Jupiter at Dictionary.com
c.1200, "supreme deity of the ancient Romans," from L. Iupeter, from PIE *dyeu-peter- "god (the) master" (originally vocative, "the name naturally occurring most frequently in invocations" [Tucker]), from *deiw-os "god" (see Zeus) + peter "father" in the sense of "male head of a household" (see father). Cf. Gk. Zeu pater, vocative of Zeus pater "Father Zeus;" Skt. Dyauspita "heavenly father." The planet name is attested from late 13c. Jupiter Pluvius "Jupiter as dispenser of rain" was used jocularly from 1864.

Amun means "hidden" and was a term used in Upper Egypt to refer to the all pervading Supreme God, King of the Netjer (powers). The term Jupiter did not refer to to the planet until much later, but was a term meaning "God the Pater", the term Pater containing the meaning of both Originator and Master.

evo  Wrote:

Using English as your basis for your sun/son argument is daft.
The Latin for son is filius, the Latin for sun is sōl.
The Greek for son is υιός, the Greek for sun is ήλιος.
So, how about you show the etymology of those words, not the english.

Excellent post! Excellent! Oh so "soul" must mean the sun is inside of us! AH!!! lol Great job! Thank You so much for spreading truth and working to improve cultural literacy and linguistic understanding!

The Librarian  Wrote:

This sound familiar?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/ppr/ppr16.htm

Thank You! Yes, I love that. That is a beautiful prayer to God. Amun means hidden and Ra means manifest or refers to "that which makes manifest" while Aten was the term for the literal sun disc in the sky.

The planet Jupiter was associated or given the name Jupiter much later.

Amun and Jupiter are two words from different languages that refer to the Ultimate God, the Power that controls everything, the Ultimate Reality that supports all the Universes and life. Amun was described as omnipresent and all pervading through association with "Shu" the word for the wind and air to represent how Amun is all around and everywhere, considered bodiless and pure and without image or form (despite representations which were symbolic pictographic images that represented various attributes of God, for example the two tall feathers meaning that Amun is the Highest, and the crown meaning that Amun is King, and the blue color meaning Amun is omnipresent like Shu, within us and all around, everywhere).

"HAIL to thee, Amun-Ra, Lord of the thrones of the earth, the oldest existence, ancient of heaven, support of all things;
Chief of the gods, lord of truth; father of the gods, maker of men and beasts and herbs; maker of all things above and below;
Deliverer of the sufferer and oppressed, judging the poor;
Lord of wisdom, lord of mercy; most loving, opener of every eye, source of joy, in whose goodness the gods rejoice, thou whose name is hidden.
Thou art the one, maker of all that is, the one; the only one; maker of gods and men; giving food to all.
Hail to thee, thou one with many heads; sleepless when all others sleep, adoration to thee.
Hail to thee from all creatures from every land, from the height of heaven, from the depth of the sea.
The powers thou hast made extol thee, saying, welcome to thee, Originator of the Originators of the Powers; we worship thy spirit(animating power) which is in us."

That is my God. I don't worship the planet Jupiter, but that which sustains all realities and originated all information and animates all events, the Ultimate One that is infinite, omnipresent, and pervading everywhere inside and out.

The Librarian  Wrote:

"Amen (Amun, Amon, Yimen; GR Zeus-Ammon, Jupiter-Ammon) - "The Hidden One," Amen is "King of the Netjeru," a major Name of Netjer in Uaset (Thebes) in Upper Kemet. The "Lord to the Limit" who created all things (see Nun, Tem, Ra and Ptah entries for other Creator Names), Amen the lord of the hidden wind eventually syncretised with the royal cult of Ra to emerge as Amen-Ra in the Middle Kingdom. Successions of Theban rulers would propel Amen's fame to national and eventually international status; even Alexander the Great sought Amen's blessing before declaring himself Kemet's ruler. It is possible that the conception of Amen influenced conceptions of the Judaic/Hebraic God (YHVH) as well as those of Greek Zeus and Roman Jupiter; the Romans declared Jupiter and Amen to be the same divinity. Amen is generally depicted as a man wearing a tall golden plumed crown and a red and white pleated skirt; infrequently He is also shown as a ram with curled-down horns (not to be confused with the ram representing Khnum), or a ram-headed man. "

http://www.kemet.org/glossary/amen.html

YEP! NOW YOU'RE TALKIN'! THAT IS RIGHT! Please note that when it talks about the Romans "Jupiter" it means "God the Pater" and you can look up that Pater means both Master and Originator, it was not a name for a planet until after the Roman Empire was all gone.

The Librarian  Wrote:

"Look it up at dictionary.com...." Look it up at Wikipedia.com".....
I'm getting my information from old books, journals and manuscripts thank you very much.
No matter what you look up online, Wikipedia or Dictionary.com will be in the top three choices for information. Go ahead, give it a try.
That's the information that they want everyone to believe. They know that most people won't spend hours online looking through documents from the 1800's...... That is most people won't.
Take some time and investigate some sources that don't pop up on the top of your browser.
The Egyptians invented hymns and they said "Amen" at the beginning and end of them to praise the hidden god "Amen". (Jupiter)

The information from the old books is often very inaccurate and downright false, containing Christian synthesis attempts and totally made up connections.

The semitic term amen is different from Yamanu the word used to refer to God in Upper Egypt (which is Southern Egypt). Please read my posts. When the term Jupiter is used, it means "God the Pater" and the term Pater means both Originator and Master, it was not used to refer to a planet until much later when the Roman religion and Empire was all over.

The Librarian  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

What you quoted is not saying the word in italics as "sun" meant "sun".

I even showed you the etymology in an earlier post.

son (n.) Look up son at Dictionary.com
O.E. sunu "son," from P.Gmc. *sunuz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. sunu, O.N. sonr, Dan. søn, Swed. son, M.Du. sone, Du. zoon, O.H.G. sunu, Ger. Sohn, Goth. sunus "son"), from PIE *sunu-/*sunyu- (cf. Skt. sunus, Gk. huios, Avestan hunush, Armenian ustr, Lith. sunus, O.C.S. synu, Rus., Pol. syn "son"), from root *su- "to give birth" (cf. Skt. sauti "gives birth," O.Ir. suth "birth, offspring"). Sonny as a familiar form of address to one younger or inferior is from 1870. Son of _____ as the title of a sequel to a book or movie is recorded from 1929.

Dude, please understand, when it is using these words it is not talking about the sun. When the transliteration "sun" is used in reference to the word "son" it was pronounced "soon".

The Librarian  Wrote:

No, the "word" Jupiter was not used until later to describe the planet. before that, the planet's name was Amen. It still all refers to that little bit of light in the sky that had fallen from the heavens and now wanders the night sky. The stars that stayed in place were the "angels" and the "fallen ones" were the planets because they wandered the night sky.

No, that is not true, the planet called Jupiter later on was not called Amun by the Egyptians. The Planet Jupiter would have appeared as a small star if anything from the Egyptian perspective

The Librarian  Wrote:

"Dude" The word "son" stems from the word "sun". When they are referring to the son of God, the correct meaning is "sun" as in that giant life giving force in the sky. A literal flesh and blood "son" is a false translation of the ancient texts.

No it does not, I've shown you the etymology chain for the words "sun" and "son" and when you bolded the terms "sun" those were not referring to the "sun" and were pronounced "soon" like "zoon" while the word "sun" derives from another word which I've shown you, now I'll show you again:

sun (n.) Look up sun at Dictionary.com
O.E. sunne, from P.Gmc. *sunnon (cf. O.N., O.S., O.H.G. sunna, M.Du. sonne, Du. zon, Ger. Sonne, Goth. sunno), from PIE *s(u)wen- (cf. Avestan xueng "sun," O.Ir. fur-sunnud "lighting up"), alternative form of root *saewel- "to shine, sun" (see Sol). O.E. sunne was fem., and the fem. pronoun was used until 16c.; since then masc. has prevailed. The empire on which the sun never sets (1630) originally was the Spanish, later the British. To have one's place in the sun (1680s) is from Pascal's "Pensées"; the German imperial foreign policy sense (1897) is from a speech by von Bülow.

and

son (n.) Look up son at Dictionary.com
O.E. sunu "son," from P.Gmc. *sunuz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. sunu, O.N. sonr, Dan. søn, Swed. son, M.Du. sone, Du. zoon, O.H.G. sunu, Ger. Sohn, Goth. sunus "son"), from PIE *sunu-/*sunyu- (cf. Skt. sunus, Gk. huios, Avestan hunush, Armenian ustr, Lith. sunus, O.C.S. synu, Rus., Pol. syn "son"), from root *su- "to give birth" (cf. Skt. sauti "gives birth," O.Ir. suth "birth, offspring"). Sonny as a familiar form of address to one younger or inferior is from 1870. Son of _____ as the title of a sequel to a book or movie is recorded from 1929.

Now please note the differences and remember that when the transliteration "sun" is used when talking about "sun" to is pronounced "soon" like "zoon".

dude (n.) Look up dude at Dictionary.com
1883, "fastidious man," New York City slang of unknown origin. The vogue word of 1883, originally used in reference to the devotees of the "aesthetic" craze, later applied to city slickers, especially Easterners vacationing in the West (e.g. dude ranch, first recorded 1921).

The Librarian  Wrote:

Yes, and they noticed how bright it was and that it wandered across the night sky. They gave it godlike status for that reason. They called that little bit of light "Amen" and wrote hymns praising it.

You're making that up out of thin air. Venus appears far brighter than the planet known now as Jupiter, and there is no evidence anywhere from Egyptian sources that they were referring to a tiny bit of light in the sky as
Amun when they described Amun as invisible and omnipresent everywhere around them. Are you trolling me or something?

The Librarian  Wrote:

Yes, Venus is brighter and they had names for it as well. Best known is Isis. You come into a thread I created and start throwing around dictionary.com cut and pastes and accuse me of trolling you???

I just wondered if you were trolling me since I've shown you so much information so far and you seem to continue to deny it. Isis means "throne" and was a representation of the authority, power, and dominion of God as well as such authority as bestowed by God upon the Pharoah.

Rager Dog  Wrote:

The Librarian  Wrote:

Yes, Venus is brighter and they had names for it as well. Best known is Isis. You come into a thread I created and start throwing around dictionary.com cut and pastes and accuse me of trolling you???

Your copy pastas are no better. Just because they're older doesn't make them any more legit. Second-hand information is still second-hand. Doesn't matter where it's from. Unless you ACTUALLY study and find FIRST HAND proof of what you are trying to prove as fact, what you are saying is basically hypocritical. That, or it's just a double standard you are using to lower someone's credibility by bashing the site's they get the information.

Thanks a million! The older information is usually outdated and has since been replaced with more updated information through further discoveries. Archeology and stuff was a young science still in the 1800s even and lots more information has been gathered now!

LoP Guest  Wrote:

I have "lucifer I am" tatted into my wrist. Part of me thinks that Jesus and lucifer had there roles reversed.

The term Lucifer is used of Jesus in the Bible. It is people who misuse the term these days.


I interpret religious statements about "light" as referring to "knowledge" and "truth" that which makes things seen/visible/comprehensible/manifest/understood.

I don't think God is physical light like the kind produced by the sun or lightbulbs.

I think God is full of infinite knowledge (light) and there is no ignorance (darkness) within God.

Well, I think physical light is as much a manifestation made of knowledge/information as water or "vacuum" or whatever else exists, but that it is highly limited, and one of the most limited things in the entire Universe (there is very little light compared to darkness or "vacuum"/void in space).

Physical light is produced by igniting gasses generally and its just a natural type thing while what I call God is what encompasses all natural things but is not encompassed by or represented accurately by any natural thing.

I also think that the "light" as "knowledge" analogy and metaphor was well known in ancient times and used widely, and was not generally meant as sunlight or whatever.

God exists in the utter darkness, and for those who are blind, and so God is presently pervading throughout all lit places (and there are few) and all dark places (and there are many). The one that controls the light and the darkness, each being manifestations of information/knowledge, a form of information that we can experience through our senses.

You can see here the metaphor used not to mean physical light apparently:

Matthew 6:23
But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

and earlier:

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Isaiah also says the thing I have often quoted:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

So God is beyond all natural things, everything being the creation of God, through the Will/Word/Command of God, all that exists being essentially information, and all information coming from God, existing within God, sustained by God, animated by God, and controlled by God, God being able to manifest infinite knowledge and encompassing all knowledge, there being no lack of knowledge or inability to see or inability to understand within God to whom all things are manifest and known and who has the ability to make anything manifest and known to anyone (to show them the "light" and to bless them with "light" in knowledge and goodness).

sia  Wrote:

i simply dont think of 'god' as outside of creation. for instance there is dna with its set of code/directions, there is an animating process which makes cells replicate, there is gravity, etc - all of the above are things our science cannot figure out, we know they are there but know where they come from.

I wouldn't say "outside" as in "detached from" but I think God is actively animating all reality and information from within reality/behind reality/throughout reality, whatever, but to say that God is just a rock or just a light or just gravity or whatever is too limiting I think, God encompasses the light and the gravity, and is the true power that makes those things work, but those things do not represent the whole of God or God entirely, and if they didn't exist God would still exist meaning they are part of God and this reality but are not God itself who exists despite those things, even when there were not those things, the essential power behind everything, the originating force, the animating consciousness/will.

sia  Wrote:

i agree. and you know it is our arrogance to think god must be like us, this is what all ancient people thought, jews and egyptians included, a person sitting above us 'somewhere' pulling strings like a puppet master, it seems to me whatever god is, it is intimately involved in sustaining the naturual laws of life.

Yeah, I agree, though I'm not really sure that people actually literally imagined God as a man sitting up in the sky or something.

The Egyptians in Upper Egypt called God by the name of Amun, and represented Amun at later times through symbolic imagery, each component of the imagery was symbolic and a reference to a quality. Amun means Hidden, and Amun was colored blue in later depictions in association with "Shu" the air, to represent how Amun was omnipresent and surrounding everything like the air. Amun was considered bodiless and pure, formless and infinite, encompassing and controlling all the netjer, the powers or natural elements that make up reality.

The Aztecs recognized Tezcatlipoca as omnipresent too, associating the omnipresence with the "night wind" in reference to both the vastness of the Universe and the animation and presence of the wind and how it surrounds everything and is everywhere.

The Bible also says that God can not be contained by the Universe and indicates that God is omnipresent and not a man or in the image of a man, despite what some might have thought.

The Hindu people in some parts make idols and images, but these too were largely symbolic with each part representing a quality or aspect and attribute, not a literal representation since the Vedic literature clearly states that God is pervading everywhere and is bodiless and pure, same goes for Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians and Allah, who is "closer" or "nearer" than ones own jugular vein, surrounding and encompassing everything inside and out, pervading everywhere infinitely, encompassing all vision while not being encompassed by any vision since it is impossible to encompass something unlimited by form or image that is infinite and pure with any senses which can only interpret some forms of information.

I discuss this idea of the pantheos and panentheos throughout my thread, and the various concepts cultures had of God, and how the imagery some cultures produced were not intended to be taken literally but were symbolic, each element having a meaning like a noble man with a crown to represent Kingship, a rod to represent authority and power, a throne to represent dominion, and things like that. There is enough literature that the elements and their symbolic nature become clear, and one can see that the ancients, especially the educated "sages" were aware of the symbolism and did not believe that God was a man or in the form of a man, which is a relatively recent concept. Even the ancient Germanic people believed in the pervading God, so did the ancient Romans, the Greeks also make it clear that their images were symbolic rather than literal by personifying everything, even things like "luck" and "night" and whatever else, it would be wrong to assume they really literally though "luck" was a human and "night" was a human, that is all just symbolic personification.

Also I'm pretty certain the "image" or "phantom/semblance" of God thing from the Bible is a reference to our dominion over the animals and things on Earth, since it states that right afterwards, in similitude to God's dominion over everything, including us and the animals.

This is just one type of universe in one type of reality, I think there could be others with entirely different laws that would not be compatible with our experience and thus we would not even be able to exist in such realities or know things by the senses we know things by in this world.

Only stuff that pertains to this Universe and this reality can be discovered by science, material stuff, but what I call God encompasses all possible realities and is understandable through reasoning and stuff but is not made of matter which pertains specifically to any universe, so I'm not sure science could get a substance out of the power which animates all that exists, but the animation is clearly visible.

_________

When you say "they" do you mean Luciferians? Luciferians, as far as I know, don't associate the term Lucifer with Yaldabaoth, but consider Yaldabaoth to be the demiurge and Lucifer to be the supreme power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaldabaoth#Yaldabaoth

Yaldabaoth is what Luciferians would consider YHWH probably or "God" but would consider Lucifer to be the superior power which tried to assist people and help them to ascend and stuff while Yaldabaoth tries to keep them trapped.

So in that sense God was considered the devil and the devil or serpent was considered a manifestation or incarnation of God by some.

"He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul, Yaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise. The Demiurge, fearing lest Jesus, whom he had intended as his Messiah, should spread the knowledge of the Supreme God, had him crucified by the Romans. At the consummation of all things all light will return to the Pleroma. But Yaldabaoth, the Demiurge, with the material world, will be cast into the lower depths."

So you can see that the character of God is considered Yaldabaoth, but the character of Satan or the serpent is considered heroic for getting people to eat from the tree.

I should clarify though that the devil or satan was considered the "God of this world" and the tempter in the Garden was considered a manifestation of the Supreme God by some, the one trying to do good.

__________

freebyrd  Wrote:

not a call out...because i didn't say it he did,

its one of those uncomfortable scriptures that the church doesn't like to talk about,
so who is it that you worship?

think long and hard about it,

========================================​=============

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Yes! If someone worships something that didn't create everything and isn't aware of everything and doesn't control everything, then they worship something lesser than the Ultimate Power.

Yeah, I define "evil" as "harm" and "good" as "benefit" so that people don't get mixed up too much!

Evil is whatever harms, good is whatever benefit. A spider catching a fly...it is "good" for the spider as in "beneficial" and "evil" for the fly to which it is "harmful". For living things, harm and benefit is constantly happening!

God controls all good and all evil, all light and all darkness, all that exists, and created it all too. There is nothing to feel threatened about by the english word "evil" being used (God created evil in every form you can imagine, and all possibilities that are available):
"harm, crime, misfortune, disease. The meaning "extreme moral wickedness" was in O.E., but did not become the main sense until 18c."

...The term Satan means "enemy" and though it is a term that can apply to God, the real enemy of a person would be someone that wishes another would never succeed or gain benefit or peace ultimately!

Hades! Dispater! Pluto! Three words associated with the attribute of God that deals with hidden treasures!

Etymology and Epithets
(g.) Hades, "unseen", "invisible"
(l.) Pluto or Dis/Dives, "wealth" (referring to underground metals), "the enricher"
(l.) Orcus, "confining place"
Zeus Katachtonius (kata "under" + cthon "earth"), "Zeus underground"

The Greek View of Death: When psyche ("breath"/"soul"), anima ("soul"/"spirit"), or anemos ("wind") is separated from the soma/corpus ("body"). Literally, when one breathes his/her last.

Also, to add one note for people who read your excellent post! When it refers to Cyrus as God's anointed the term is "Messiah"! Yes, for those who didn't know, Cyrus is actually called Messiah in the Bible!

Lone  Wrote:

Do you have a little son or girl OP ? i guess not.
If you hád; and you d give her a knife to cut her cake with - would you want her to stab you in the chest with it ??
- but it is YOU who GAVE her that knife - right ?
so it was YOU who ' created evil ' - by giving her the knife -
but only because you desire she will use all you give, for good
and not for bad.

Virtually *anything* of Creation can be misused.
so... what is the option then... to 'not make Creation, at all ' ?

man..... you both 'read and read - yet never learn '

a couple of resisting sheep you both are; looking for faults

instead of searching the Truth.

Though I understand and mainly agree with your post, God created even the option for "daughter stabs father in chest" which I wouldn't have created as an available option, knives could cut cakes but do no harm to humans.

Furthermore the role of God in doing harm is much more direct in the Bible, literally sending calamity, disease, and troubles, making animals attack, making people lie so that they are destroyed, giving people over to lewdness like homosexuality for believing God is in the image of humans...

It isn't merely just humans having the options to do evil, but God directly doing great harm to everyone and everything as well, besides merely creating it all.

Does God being the Lord of Evil mean anything though? God has all the power, what can anyone really do save trying to gain what is best for oneself from God while avoiding harm as much as possible!

Satan is not the "Lord of Evil" and people give way too much credit and power to Satan when Satan is just an ambitious liar, like many ambitious liars both human and those belonging to the spirit race.

...The term Satan means "enemy" and though it is a term that can apply to God, the real enemy of a person would be someone that wishes another would never succeed or gain benefit or peace ultimately!

So you don't even need to really apologize for God being the Lord of Evil/Harm, it is probably important to realize, that all good/benefit and all evil/harm and everything is the creation of God and all that comes to pass comes to pass through the will of God, nothing would happen if God didn't permit it! Evil on many levels, merciful and good on many others, God is all anyone has got! The life and the sustenance of all reality, provider of all possibilities, animator of all events!

Ranger Rabbit  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Ranger, can you read my post above please? The one with the big bolded letters and two hidden entries that explain lots that you might find useful!

It's done, thank you.
You explain much better that I could...

As some could say : It's only in the darkness of night that you can see the light...

And thank too to have clarify the meaning of Satan : Opposants-adversaries.
Yet, as 'God' is everything, I wonder against who he is opposed?

Satan, I believe, was a term used to one poised against human beings and hoping to hinder them on the path of life. No one can oppose God really, who is described among all religions, including the Bible, as the controller of all reality and events, both the good (beneficial) and the evil (harmful)! Thus God would be the Ultimate source and dispenser of all good and evil, the Lord of Evil, the Lord of Good, the Master of Disaster, and the Bestower of Gifts.

Thank You so much for taking a look at my posts, I really appreciate it so much! It was very kind of you to take a moment to do that and respond to me here! Thank You!

Post: #3951

Part 1: http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-I-have-a-HUGE-crush-on
Part 2: http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-The-Offi...edomStands
Part 3: http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-A-seriou...edomStands
Part 4: http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-A-seriou...ds--228040

I don't believe that "evil" is like some "thing" that has any real substance and "exists inside" people. I think evil should be defined as harm, and what is evil is what is harmful to oneself and others generally.

Is a spider catching a fly and eating it evil? For the spider it is good, but for the fly it is evil!

We live by harm and doing harm, killing living things in order to survive and eat and whatever (even plants).

Everyone is born innocent because they haven't done anything bad yet on purpose really, and people either do bad things or not, it isn't hard to avoid doing big bad things usually I think.

So does everyone have a dark side? Well if that means potential to do harm either deliberately or accidentally then maybe depending on their physical capacity, condition, and understanding. If it means an innate evil or darkness then no, unless someone means the darkness inside our bodies, because in that case its all dark inside usually!

I think nobody has a dark side or evil side naturally or innately, and that evil only exists through evil actions and doesn't exist by itself as some kind of energy or substance like how some people tend to use the word at times!

There are apparently more areas lacking light than there is available light in the Universe, light is very scarce and limited! So there may be a scarcity of light (sources and range) as compared to the area lacking light.

The main things producing light are stars, and the stars and the range their light only take up a small space in the universe.

I think that darkness was originally associated with evil because it is hard (or impossible) to "see" (visually) in the dark, and many people may have stumbled in the dark and felt fear of what they can't see, so that is how it came to be associated with ignorance and harm which were then called "evil" and "evil" came to mean some kind of "power" or "energy" to many today.

Actually, Western Occultism seems more obsessed with Duality than real Eastern traditions. There were some versions of Zoroastrianism which may have inspired dualistic thinking, but in the Eastern philosophies there is often more of a focus on non-dualism.

Christianity took it to a new level with the popular idea accepted by many as a battle between "good" and "evil", "God" and "Satan", but this isn't founded in scripture so much as popular culture. The God of the Bible is the controller of good and evil, harm and benefit.

izzy  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Hmm, I'm a true believer, but I don't think believing a mountain will move will make it move, I think Jesus taught that God controls everything and decides everything.

Matthew 21:21 King James Version
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Your wrong...Christ couldn't be any more clear about this...
according to the WORD your not a true believer...which means you can ONLY be a deceived christtard...maybe you should consider quit thinking..

Mark 7:21 King James Version
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

You don't need to be mean to me, I was trying to explain that Jesus was supposed to have performed miracles through God's power, in other words, God performs the miracles, and I do believe God can alter reality in any way, but I don't think it is correct to think that God does whatever a person desires if they believe God will do whatever they desire. Do you see what I'm saying?

You can easily prove this theory of yours though, simply make the sun rise from the opposite side of the sky for example! If you can't do it, you're either not faithful enough OR you don't have power over God and God does whatever God wills.

The New Testament says that Jesus says that he was acting according to God's will and not his own.

Plate_Dog_Carrot  Wrote:

What do you make of the apocryphal gospels? What do you make of the idea that many Gnostic Christians hold that Jehovah was an evil spirit and Abraham was posessed. That the snake in the garden was actually a messenger from the creator.

Also is it not likely that the real creator never said a word on this planet. Except for the gift or spark which we hold, for as Jesus himself said "The kingdom of God is within you!" or "Ye are all gods, ye are all sons of the lord most high"

Why is it that Jehovah is a "jealous god", do we not see throughout the old testament proof that he was simply one of several entities battling for dominion over mankind, keen on blood sacrifice, rituals, rites, spells.

Was Jesus not one of a string of wise spiritualists that have tried to free us of this enslavement.

Are the forces of catholocism and religion keeping us in chains? Do they begin by choosing which gospels to include, and thereby shape the message? Is it the teachings and not the man that is important?

I'll answer is the user on LOP who may be best educated about Christianity and considering myself a most excellent Christian (among other compatible things).

You asked "What do you make of the apocryphal gospels?":

The apocryphal scriptures, like all scriptures, should be studied historically and with careful reference to their dates and places of circulation. They are collections of traditional stories that were passed on but excluded from the Canon of the Christian Bible among some or all Christian Churches (communities). What is most important is to understand that the New Testament is not the direct word of Jesus but rather a collection of traditions regarding the life of Jesus and letters attributed to Paul circulated among some Christians that give clues into the mentality and beliefs accepted by the Pauline communities of Christians.

You asked "What do you make of the idea that many Gnostic Christians hold that Jehovah was an evil spirit and Abraham was posessed?":

I don't believe in that, but ancient Gnosticism before the influence and mingling with Hebrew ideas was acceptable and compatible with Christianity and monotheism in some forms at least. YHWH is an epithet for 'lh (Uhlah) which is the general word often designated for the Supreme Power that pervades everywhere. YHWH may have meant something like "He who makes manifest" or "He who makes himself known" or "He who makes known". It was possibly pronounced "Yuhoowuh'hah" which said fast sounds like "Yuhoowuh" and then morphed into the modern "Yahway" and the completely mispronounced "Jehovah" which was originally pronounced by Europeans more accurately as "Yuhowuh".

You said "That the snake in the garden was actually a messenger from the creator":
Yes, I'm familiar with the ideas of some gnostic sects that claim that. I don't believe there was any actual snake in the story. The term in Hebrew actually can mean "whisperer" and the same word was used of "enchanters" while there were other words for literal serpents and vipers available in the language. The word used was nachash, a word related to the hissing whispering sound that is related to snakes as well as anyone who whispers.

You said "Also is it not likely that the real creator never said a word on this planet":
What you're calling the "real creator" and what you imagine YHWH to be, and many other things may greatly differ from my beliefs. I believe in the Supreme One, not the demiurge, but the Ultimate Power, the Pleroma, the Hypsistos, the One, the All Pervading, the One that animates all life actively and is behind and throughout everything.

You said Except for the gift or spark which we hold, for as Jesus himself said "The kingdom of God is within you!" or "Ye are all gods, ye are all sons of the lord most high":
Everything is part of God, depending on God in order to exist. Everyone has the capacity to judge and take actions, and all things come from the Originator, but that doesn't mean you are superior to a tree, or that you or a tree can make the sun rise from the other side of the sky by your will. So what power does anyone or anything really have? People and all things are animated and sustained by the Ultimate Power that supports all life and events and motions and information and realities. A human or a rock is just part of the reality, not the Ultimate Reality that encompasses them all, the Pantheos and the Panentheos.

You said "Why is it that Jehovah is a "jealous god", do we not see throughout the old testament proof that he was simply one of several entities battling for dominion over mankind, keen on blood sacrifice, rituals, rites, spells":
Jeremiah 8:8 states "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely by writing lies?" which indicates that the Torah we have today is full of corruption and false verses, one should take what is best and forget about what is not in accord with common sense and righteous conduct through reason and logic.

Moloch is Malak, an epithet for God. Baal is Husband/Lord, another term used of God but often attributed to lesser concepts than the Supreme Power. Dagon means "wheat" it is not an entity, but a symbolic personification of "wheat" and it seems silly to worship "wheat" rather than the Ultimate Power that determines everything about "wheat".

The Bible and other ancient religions make it clear that in actuality there is only one Supreme Power, Amun, Vishnu, Uhlah, Ahura Mazda, whatever one might call it, if it is defined as the Ultimate Power which pervades and animates all life and reality then it is the same power being spoken of.

The Bible says there is only One God, no others, no partners, no literal "gods" nothing at all but the One Ultimate Power having no equal or associates, the originator of all that exists everywhere, and the animator of all events and realities.

You said "Was Jesus not one of a string of wise spiritualists that have tried to free us of this enslavement":
What enslavement? What is freedom? Freedom to create whatever you will and desire? True "Free will", well, how do you propose to achieve that? The religion propounded in the New Testament generally does not tell people to cease the worship of the Ultimate God and Jesus himself is depicted in the Bible as worshiping God and is referred to or refers to himself (in the Greek translation which is thought to be the oldest available right now) as "pais" which was a term used of slaves and heralds to a King, a subordinate who is controlled by God and does as God commands, so what "Free will" or "freedom"?

You said "Are the forces of catholocism and religion keeping us in chains?":
Catholicism loses followers regularly, and many Christians do not know much about their religion in detail but follow various things invented by the Churches like the concept of the Trinity. The single largest religious denomination in the world is the strictly monotheistic and unitarian religion of Sunni Islam.

You said "Do they begin by choosing which gospels to include, and thereby shape the message? Is it the teachings and not the man that is important?":

Various Churches have various Canons and books they include, but investigating other texts in regard to history and a glimpse into other ideas which were circulating at various times is likely a healthy pursuit to give an individual a greater understanding of Christianity.

As a final note, I do not believe in an old man in the sky as God, or a demiurge, or that "Satan is the God of this World" as some say and mean literally, or any of that. What I call God is whatever is the utmost in Ultimateness that supports, sustains, and animates everything everywhere, is infinite and unbounded, penetrating and permeating through everything.

You can read more of my explanation of what I call God in the first post of my thread called "Easy Religion in a Nutshell" which is linked in my signature. The thread and initial posts contain lots of information that you should study if you have an interest in religions and history as well as philosophy and theology.

Thank You for your questions!

____________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujz7WSYTU...re=related

Youtube comments:

certainly better than most footage ive seen but I have to say I have also seen military craft show up exactly like this in IRNV.

gambleyourhealth 1 year ago

technically, the TR-3B Astra and other related craft are military attack/recon vehicles

DescendantsOfEnoch in reply to gambleyourhealth 1 year ago

I understand that very well. Both my brother and Father are in the Air Force. However I thought the point of this is that they are Mysterious/Alien/UFO

gambleyourhealth in reply to DescendantsOfEnoch 1 year ago

Of course is it not really of "alien" origin, but it will be claimed to be so when the elitists use the "alien" invasion false flag to bring in their 7 year New World Order. See my website below for more details:

fallenalien . com

DescendantsOfEnoch in reply to gambleyourhealth 1 year ago

_____________

I think people mostly believe things (based on evidence and experience among other things) but can "know" very little for certain since it can be difficult to "know" that one "knows" something for certain. We can't even know for certain, for example, if other people are even perceiving things like we are (it could be the chemical that is called "green" by two people, may actually appear what another may call "blue" if we were to look through their eyes though whatever color is being picked up is agreed upon by people as being called "green" or whatever.

For example, we all agree to call the sky "blue", but there is no way to know if everyone sees the color "blue" or the color of the sky as the same color or in the same way. We are totally trapped in our own understanding of things. Like if you were to look through someone else eyes, they may be calling the sky blue because that is what everyone agrees is the color, but they might be seeing it as what you would have called "purple" or something.

Some of the things we can know for certain are:

That there is not "nothing" by definition, and that there is thus "something" by definition, which we are "experiencing" by definition. That is it really, that is all we can know for certain, that there is something which we are experiencing and that there is not nothing by definition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4b81V1FVDc

Post: #3952

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_jvXnPG9Xc

All Presidents regardless of their party are criminals, criminal spokespeople controlled by criminal banksters.

Obama continued the occupation and killing of innocents in far away countries, drone attacks and soldiers murdering civilian populations, children and others.

Obama increased and continued funding to the Genocidal Radical Zionist International Law Breaker Criminals, and the USA and Israel worked to destabilize many countries during the Obama administration and killed many civilians yet again (learn about NATO GLADIO and the Lavon Affair and the USS LIBERTY if you don't believe in covert false flag ops), and the mass murder and destabilizing process continues to this day as natural resources are raped from the local populations.

ANYONE WHO VOTES, VOTES FOR BANKSTERS AND RADICAL ZIONISTS. EITHER OR, ALL THE LIKELY CANDIDATES AND OPTIONS,
BOTH SIDES ARE FUNDED BY THE SAME BANKSTERS.

ANYONE WHO VOTES, ONLY CONVINCES THEMSELVES AN ELECTION TOOK PLACE, WHEN THE PERSON SELECTED IS THE ONE THAT WAS DETERMINED BY THE BANKSTERS.

ANYONE WHO VOTES, HAS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS, THE BLOOD OF ALL THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS:

FATHERS, SONS, BROTHERS, HUSBANDS, MOTHERS, DAUGHTERS, SISTERS, WIVES, CHILDREN UPON CHILDREN, INFANTS UPON INFANTS, AND PETS AND ANIMALS

MURDERED BY ANY ADMINISTRATION THAT COMES IN, THOSE EXECUTED WITHIN THE USA AND OUTSIDE IN OTHER COUNTRIES, SUPPORTERS OF GENOCIDE AND WAR AND TERROR UPON CIVILIAN POPULATIONS.

YOUR VOTE IS ARBITRARY, THE ACTOR SPOKESPERSON WILL BE PLACED AS PRE-DETERMINED BY THE POWER HUNGRY AND HEARTLESS CORPORATIST INTERNATIONALIST BANKSTERS, THE CONTROLLERS OF THE WORLD'S ECONOMIC, HUMAN, and NATURAL RESOURCES!

_________

Often Neo-Nazis don't realize how bad Hitler was for Germany and Germans. He sent so many Germans to die horribly, rather than focusing on making Germany great and stable. This was to divert the youth from the dangerously stagnating and crashing economy and to send away all the demographic at risk of becoming Communist radicals through workers union type riots.

National Socialism was a form of Socialism to try to counter the Bolshevik Marxist style rebellions that were threatening to the German corporations due to the poor economic situation through the first Bankster war of WW1 and the deteriorating situation in the "Weimar Republic".

Meanwhile, the devious Banksters funded both sides of the war and profiteered as thoroughly as possible.

All a bunch of villains, that ended up really harming Germany and leading to horrible troubles for many years to come.

Hitler harmed, Jews, Slavics, Germans, Austrians, French, Polish, Russians, destroyed his country and had the youth slaughtered and the women apparently raped as well when the Russians invaded and were told by vile propagandists to rape and pillage freely according to some reports. Just a total mess, and nothing was accomplished even, and it gave an excuse to further spawn and justify the theft of Palestinian land and the occupation and take over of that nation and the years and years of horrible oppression by the new Nazi-like ethnic supremacists who claim to need "living space" the same as the National Socialists of Germany did...The Radical Zionists.

__________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPe5zcTjH4

Just a regular raid on the Helots! They do this all the time. The attacks don't benefit the Palestinians, civilians are mass murdered because of them, making the most likely culprit for the rockets (read about this happening in 1984 the book), and the "justified" unjustifiable airstrikes are by the same mass murdering villains, the radical Zionist government of Israel (which is treated the Palestinians as if they are Canaanites, making the brainwashed army re-live Biblical atrocities):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helots#Tre...y_Spartans

Some info about Jewish Laws regarding people who might have "projections" being cast on them that compares them to these ancient people:

NOT TO KEEP ALIVE ANY INDIVIDUAL of the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 20:16) (negative).

TO EXPERIMENT the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel (Deut. 20:17) (affirmative).

NOT TO OFFER PEACE to the Ammonites and the Moabites BEFORE WAGING WAR ON THEM, as should be done to other nations (Deut. 23:7) (negative).

Always to remember what Amalek did (Deut. 25:17) (CCA76).

That the evil done to us by Amalek shall not be forgotten (Deut. 25:19) (CCN194).

TO DESTROY THE SEED of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) (CCA77).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZn6IUAPY5s

I remember a racist in youtube comments was named "EdomiteSlayer" for example. The stories are still used in racist propaganda to convince people to mass murder civilians and steal the livelihood of the fellahin farmers.

It is unfair to apply the term "anti-semitism" as pertaining only to people who consider themselves Jewish by ethnicity. The semitic language family is very large, and the semitic language speaking people include everyone from ancient Canaanites to Babylonians and Arabs and perhaps even Ethiopians.

The most apparently Anti-semitic people in the world are the radical Zionists of Israel who constantly spout anti-semitic rhetoric about other semitic peoples like the Arabs and even the "African Jews" and others! They also speak badly of ancient semitic people like the Babylonians and Canaanites among others!

Jam  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Just because the Bible uses the term YHWH and associates it with some cruel seeming statements and actions, doesn't mean others who used the word used it in the same way. The term YHWH was likely an epithet for 'lh (pronounced Uhlah) and was probably used by other people speaking the semitic languages besides the writers of the Bible.

Yeah, but the reason many people are hostile to the term "YHWH" is possibly because of their hostility towards some of the things contained in the Bible, so I was trying to explain that the term was not exclusive to the Bible, but appears in the region of the Levant among other groups of semitic language speaking people besides the Hebrew speaking "Children of Israel".

Noah was not semitic or Hebrew. His g-grandson founded Babylon. His son Cush founded the entire region of Sumer after the flood (which was global).

The Akkadian language, the languages of Assyria and Babylon, belong to the semitic family of languages (like Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, Chaldean, and others like Phoenician and Canaanite).

The genetics of the people were likely largely the same or similar to others who spoke semitic languages, all of them deriving from the same source generally and using related languages with the same roots (also for trading purposes).

If you believe the entire world population was wiped out, then all people descend from Noah whose ancestor is Adam.

The information I've presented is accurate. I call all people who use the semitic languages and have elements of the same general semitic culture and all used the word 'lh (Uhlah) in various forms as belonging to the same family of languages as well as likely being closely related genetically among the whole semitic language family speaking region from Babylonia/Akkad/Chaldea/Syria to Southern Arabia and possibly parts of Eastern Africa, and up to the Levant and the region of modern Israel/Palestine.

Spank The Monkey  Wrote:

Council of Nicea.....

Also after the Jewish revolt of the AD70's Christians wanted to put as much distance between themselves and their Judaic roots...
Christanity also was the religion of the Gentile
There was much anti semitism amongs Greek speakers esp in Alexandria and the more Hellenised areas of Judea.

There was also a long tradition of anti-gentilism amongst the Zealots and Radical Jews throughout the centuries which was happening at earlier periods like at the time that the Maccabees story is about and what the tradition of Hanukkah relates to.

Christianity is thought to have started out as a Jewish sect, but due to the growth of the gentile population accepting Christianity (and those new practitioners not being very familiar with the internal culture of the Jewish community, because they had not been raised as Jews) the newer generations of Christians began to interpret the Scriptures differently and apply different paradigms and perspectives to the material.

Peter is said to have not approved of the Pauline acceptance of gentiles after initially agreeing to it during some early council or meeting that was said to have happened between them (of which a letter was circulated).

The official Roman or Byzantine involvement with Christianity began after the scriptures (as various writings that had been accepted by communities) were already circulated among Christians (some of which were later rejected), but it is believed by scholars that characters like Joseph the Husband of Mary and Judas were "pious inventions" among others maybe. Judas was meant to represent the Jews, and Joseph appears only in later versions of the story, possibly to do away with questions as to Mary traveling alone or other issues that were troublesome to people in the Jewish and Greek cultures.

If it had not been for the inclusion of the Gentiles, the religion would likely have never become as gigantic and influential as it did.

Through Christianity, the Jewish traditional learning and stories of the Bible were spread worldwide, where otherwise they would have been generally circulated among Jewish people mainly and unknown to most parts of the world.

The next massive spread of stories dealing with the characters of the Bible was spread through Islam and the Qur'an (though the stories differ in some ways and how the characters are depicted).

These two cultural evolutions and interpretations of related stories ended up in the supposed dichotomy of the "Western World" and the "Muslim World", where the idea of the "Western World" was particularly related to Christianity, so may better be called the "Christian World".

Through these two gigantic religions and the various nations which followed them, the semitic religion (the ideas known among many groups o semitic language speaking people) were spread across most of the world.

Thus, the "Semitic Influenced World" would cover all of North, Central, and South America, all of Europe and Russia, All of the "Muslim World" from Turkey to Indonesia and Malaysia, and pretty much all of Africa or at least an extremely large portion, and all of central Asia pretty much, and even India (though India to Thailand, China to Japan, could be called the "Dharmic World" through largely the work of Buddhists and the acceptance of Buddhist ideas which were based on the older Vedic ideas of the Aryans from around what is today Pakistan and the northern portions of India which can also be called Bharat).

So there are only two religious spheres left in the world, the Semitic and the Dharmic/Aryan. The Semitic is split into mainly Christian and Muslim, and the Dharmic is split into mainly Hindu and Buddhist.

The rate of growth of the Hindu population is mainly by having children, while Christians and Muslims and even Buddhists continue to grow both by population and conversion.

Practitioners of Judaism are a tiny population compared to the rest of the "Semitic Influenced World", with an extremely small amount of converts or conversions. Practitioners of the Hindu religions are a much bigger population than the Jewish people, but have adopted an idea similar to that found among many Jewish people, which is that Hinduism is largely cultural religion. Zoroastrianism adopted this view too, and anyone who adopts this view is largely left with a small conversion rate and a growth rate based and dependent almost entirely on population growth among practitioners through birth.

The reasons that Islam and Christianity are able to grow through conversion as well as births, is due to their belief that these religions would benefit all people and are open to all. This idea helps religions survive, where as the cultural religions may continue to shrink depending on their population and who among the populations continues to practice the religions.

Even though the Jewish people are a small population compared to the Goyim (meaning Nations), they have immense influence in world affairs through the political influence of Zionists (Culturally Jewish Ethnocentric Nationalists) in America and parts of Europe and International Banks.

_________

Vlad  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Great post!

Usury is not something worth supporting. Taking huge chunks of interest on loans through various excuses is an unfair practice that makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

In the olden days Christians acknowledged usury and interest taking on loans as an illegal act that only Jewish people were allowed to perform because in the Bible (even though it says not to take usury) someone seems to have written it is OK for a Jew to extort money through interest from a non-jew.

I must correct you a little bit
Story is more complex then that, and you know it Lovly Free

Yes, it might be, feel free to add to any areas of my message that may be lacking so that people can know.

Those who have a legitimate need for a loan are lacking in money in the first place (since a legitimate need for a loan would mean that you can't currently afford to pay for something by providing a large sum, so must lend money and pay it back gradually). Thus a person who is low on means is asked to give more money than they even asked for or needed, while not being provided that money for their own initial use, and so they are made to pay extra (with various excuses made at times to justify this). The poor person is made poorer thereby, having spent more money than they were even able to use through the loan with interest. The rich person or organization who was able to lend the large sum is made even richer through ideally being paid all the money back plus an extra amount of money from the interest payments. That is the likely meaning of something that is said to "make the rich richer, and the poor poorer".

In many European countries, usury or taking interest was considered illegal due to the Bible and Biblical laws, but in some countries Jews were permitted to provide loans which included interest payments. The play by Shakespeare entitled "The Merchant of Venice" is about this.

Usury today means taking unjustly high amounts of interest, but the way that many people in this thread are using the word it could likely mean simply the taking of interest (I am also using the word to mean "taking interest on loans" even if the practice is considered accepted, even though lenders in Israel have options according to Biblical law which allow them to provide loans without asking for interest on them. The word translated as "usury" in the Bible does not have the modern meaning of "abusive rate" or whatever, but simply means the taking of interest or gains on loans. Loans are to be paid back at the exact amount loaned, and no extra money requested.).

Now this is what I was talking about above, and the reason it seems unusual is because in the context of other verses, it seems that taking interest from a foreigner would not be right either (the small line "To a foreigner you may charge interest" may have become a practice later on, since the Bible seems to often tell people to treat foreigners in the same way as brethren in some cases:

19 " You shall not charge interest to your brother -- interest on money or food or anything that is lent out at interest.
20 "To a foreigner you may charge interest, but to your brother you shall not charge interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all to which you set your hand in the land which you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 23:19,20)

Though you can see that the law against taking interest appears to be Universal for all people in general here:

7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully -- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 18:7-9)

Again, there appears a hint that the "strangers/foreigners" were not to be charged interest, and they are mentioned in a comparison here:

35 ' If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
36 'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
37 'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. (Leviticus 25:35-37)

13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)

17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes -- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live! (Ezekiel 18:17)

12 "In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)

(In Ezekiel, the people are being corrected on things they had invented, such as the claim that the children carry the sins of their parents, which is explained thoroughly in Ezekiel as being a false statement made up by people unjustly.)

10 "I also, with my brethren and my servants, am lending them money and grain. Please, let us stop this usury!
11 "Restore now to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their olive groves, and their houses, also a hundredth of the money and the grain, the new wine and the oil, that you have charged them." (Nehemiah 5:10,11)

5 He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)

8 One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion Gathers it for him who will pity the poor. (Proverbs 28:8)

10 Woe is me, my mother, That you have borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent for interest, Nor have men lent to me for interest. Every one of them curses me. (Jeremiah 15:10)

25 " If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
26 "If you ever take your neighbor's garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down.
27 "For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious. (Exodus 22:25-27)

_____________

"In Leviticus loans themselves are encouraged, whether of money or food, emphasizing that they enable the poor to regain their independence, but, like the other two places in the Bible, forbids the charging of interest on the loan[5]. All three places state that the charging of interest is exploitative."

"The Mishnah carefully tries to prevent evasion of the scriptural injunction against usury, preferring to forbid moral usury to trying to mitigate the scriptural rules in this area. According to the Talmud, the debtor would be as guilty as the lender..."

"The Mishnah states that it is not permissible to withhold the whole of something such as a field, for which part of the selling price has already been paid, because any income arising from possession of the entity would effectively be interest on the outstanding amount..."

In the following, you can see how far Jewish law goes against any form of interest taking:

"The Mishnah forbids the drawing of interest and dividends from investments, arguing that people should instead buy land and draw income from it[1]. The Mishnah also counts gifts, which aim to encourage the offering of loans, to be a form of interest, paid in advance[1]; similarly, gifts given in thanks for a loan, are another form of interest, according to the Mishnah, even if the loan is repaid when the gift is offered[1]. It even goes so far as to forbid the loaning of things other than money since by the time the loan had to be repaid, the market value of the loaned thing could have risen, which effectively constituted interest;[12]likewise, the exchange of labour between two individuals was forbidden by the Mishnah, if the work by one of the individuals would be more laborious than the other[1]."

"Of course, when a non-Jew was involved, Maimonides argues that interest could be charged; indeed, Maimonides argues that it was compulsory to charge interest on loans to non-Jews, but he also suggests that such loans should be restricted to being within narrow limits, to avoid the lender becoming so keen on usury that they practice it against other Jews[1]" [1] Jewish Encyclopedia

This shows an awareness of the wrongness of taking interest, that the Jewish person, namely the well respected "sage" Maimonides (Rambam) is aware how the people learning to exact interest would be bad against people such as the Jewish people.

"The early Christian Church, for reasons connected to the New Testament, declared that any usury was against divine law, preventing pious and outwardly pious Christians from using capital for mercantile purposes..."

Here is what I was talking about:

"...in 1179, Pope Alexander III excommunicated usurers, which was seen as an extremely harsh punishment[1]. However, Canon law was not regarded by medieval society as having any authority over Jews, and thus Christian monarchs looked to the Jews to supply capital to them[1]; in many European countries, medieval civil law also allowed the monarchs to inherit all remaining income and property that had been acquired by usury upon the death of the Jewish usurer involved[1]."

Here is something you may find very interesting:

"Medieval European monarchs thus supported the Jews and suppressed any attempts to convert them to Christianity since it would deprive the monarch of potential income;[1] in England and France, the monarchs demanded compensation from the church for every Jew who was converted, and, until 1281, the English monarch had the legal right to claim half the property of any Jew that converted to Christianity[1]."


The Jewish usurers had no competition in medieval Christian lands and could charge very high interest; the legal limitations imposed were particularly generous in many countries:

in Sicily, under Frederick II in 1231, up to 10% per annum[1]
in Aragon, under the Cortes of Tarragona, up to 20% per annum[1]
in Navarre, under Philip III in 1330, up to 20% per annum[1]
in Castile, under Alfonso X, up to 25% per annum[1]
in Portugal, under Alfonso IV in 1350, up to 33.33% per annum[1]
in France, under Philip Augustus, up to 43.3% per annum[1]
in England, under King John, up to 86.6% per annum[1]


The loans were generally secured, and nearly anything could be used as security, the main exception being sacred objects belonging to the Christian Church;[1] the use of such sacred objects for security was punished in law, as early as 814, when the punishment was made to be the confiscation of property.[1] The huge size of the interest rates that were permitted, together with the effect of compound interest, meant that if the loan was not quickly repaid, it would soon become unmanageable, and the security would be lost to the usurer[1]; for example, an abbot in 1173 borrowed 40 marks from Benedict the Jew, and seven years later, the amount to be repaid had grown to 583 marks.[1]

NOW CHECK THIS OUT!!!!!!!! WHY DID PEOPLE RISK THEIR LIVES? FOR SOME PEOPLE THIS MAY HAVE BEEN WHY:

The papacy protested the usury of the Jews, with Eugenius declaring that all interest charges were null and void if the debtor went on a crusade...

"Louis IX of France and Edward I of England answered the call, in 1254 and 1275 respectively, and tried to influence the Jews within their kingdom away from usury, but without effect[1]. Then, in the middle of the 13th century, groups of Italian Christians, particularly the Cahorsins and Lombards, invented legal fictions to get around the ban on Christian usury[1]; for example, one method of effecting a loan with interest was to offer money without interest but also require that the loan is insured against possible loss or injury, and/or delays in repayment (see contractum trinius)[1]. The Christians effecting these legal fictions became known as the pope's usurers and reduced the importance of the Jews to European monarchs[1]; later, in the Middle Ages, a distinction was drawn between things which were consumable (such as food and fuel) and those which were not, with usury being pemitted on loans involving the latter[1]."

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"Qur'an
Main articles: Riba and Islamic banking

The following quotations are English translations from the Qur'an:

O you who believe, you shall not take interest, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Al-'Imran 3:130)

And for practicing interest, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Al-Nisa 4:161)

The interest that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Ar-Rum 30:39)

Those who charge interest are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that charging interest is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits the taking of interest. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from taking interest, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in the taking of interest, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Al-Baqarah 2:275)

God condemns interest, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of interest taking, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Al-Baqarah 2:276-280)
"
__________

Many people don't know this probably, but there is a large amount of "fear mongering" about a supposed "creeping shariah" that is threatening to come into America, which doesn't seem backed up by any evidence, but may be a reference to Americans turning against being charged interest on loans which is in accord with Shariah Law (to be opposed to interest and criminal banking, even though it is largely found acceptable in parts of the world today). The Shariah Laws, like the extended Jewish Laws, also prohibit the giving of interest (based on things in the hadith, but the Qur'an doesn't blame debtors if they are pressured to give interest, but tells those who ask for interest to stop asking for interest and taking interest).

__________

Can you please tell me what I've missed? This post was to explain my prior post and what I was talking about. If there are some crucial points that should also be mentioned, please see if you can let me know!

Strategos  Wrote:

My view on usury is radical. I don't believe in any usury at all, not even at 1%.

That is the Biblical and Islamic view too. The Qur'an speaks strongly against any interest, but does not blame the poor people who are pressured to give it, but rather says to loaners never to ask for interest, and that by asking for interest they are doing injustice and are being inequitable.

Could it be that the secret promotion against religion has to do with people discovering its stances against usury and interest?

Post: #3953

Post: #3954

A. R. K.  Wrote:

Thank You! I tried to respond to your super kind comment in the thread earlier but it was closed! I'll see if I can get it opened later to respond to your wonderful and gracious comment there!

LoP Guest  Wrote:

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Yeah, I don't mind LoP Guest! I'm even quite pleased that Your Mom felt enough concern about me and any partner I may have to ask such a serious question for all our sakes! It was a really loving gesture actually! I hope my answer was satisfactory! If anyone has any more questions, feel free to ask! This is your chance!

What is your religion philosophy and political ideology FreedomStands?

Finally! I was saving my reply to your post until after I had replied to some others since I wanted you to see mine before it gets covered up by others! I hope you get to see this:

Thank You so much for asking!

My religious philosophy is hopefully very easy to understand! I don't believe in any "God" in the way that some associate the term "God" with some idea of an old man in the sky or among the clouds sitting around pounding his fist waiting for his scheduled revenge.

What I call "God" is whatever is the absolute Ultimate, First, and Utmost in Power and Position. If and when there was nothing at all, or if there ever was nothing at all (nothing as in absolute nothing, not space or a vacuum or a void, but no physical laws, no reality, no blackness, no whiteness, it is impossible to imagine nothing) there was still what I call God, but if that term displeases you we can use the term ULT. ULT is infinite, unbounded, having no image, being literally in the image of nothing, yet able to manifest and support and sustain all information that exists (everything is information, all possibilities, all events, all objects, all particles, all physical laws, everything is made out of information), as well as being the power which animates all information and encompasses all information.

The Universe is limited (what I call the Universe is the cosmic "egg", walled in by radiation from the big bang which our technology can not yet see past). I believe the Universe is possibly just one of many, like little flickering lights or bubbles that expand and contract in a series of big bangs and eventual big crunches. These exist within one kind of "reality" that deals with these kinds of physical laws. There are possibility numerous other sorts of "realities" that are so different that they can not even be imagined having no way to sense them or interact or process the information and laws that exist within them. Encompassing all things is ULT the Ultimate Reality, infinite, so omnipresent, pervading absolutely everywhere, through everything. If it helps you can imagine it as a "screen" and you being animated and supported on the "screen" and existed because of it. You can wiggle your fingers in the air to image the animation of all the little bits of information.

ULT is able to produce by what can be called "will" and also animates by "will". If there was no ULT or Ultimate Basis, and only pure nothing, there would still be absolute nothing today because nothing can't do anything. So the Ultimate Basis had to always exist infinitely, it is essentially the only thing that exists, we and everything simply being information that was produced within it by it.

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Once you've understood what ULT is, then you've gained an understanding of the first crucial point and what I call "God". I've explained it in more detail in my thread called "Easy Religion in a Nutshell", the first post of which contains links to posts which explain ULT in more detail.

Now the next part of the religious philosophy is that this basic understanding of an Ultimate Originating and All Pervading Ultimate of which all things are made of and by which all things live and move by that also contains all things (Pantheos/Panentheos) was generally understood and described by the various cultures and religions from around the whole world!

Amun, Tezcatlipoca, Uhllah, Shangdi, Ahura Mazda, The Numen, Kamui, Wakan Tonka, Odin, Zeus Hypsistos, Jupiter Optimus Maximus, Hades, Poseidon, YHWH Elohim, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahman, The Tao, Dharmakaya, and all the rest, are terms that refer to the ULT and to attribute of the ULT. They were at times written about in symbolic ways or symbolic personifications meant to depict through images various attributes were at times made, but the sagely people still seemed to fully understand that these were not literal representations of that which can not be fully represented and has no image (as the Egyptians and Vedic Aryans as well as the Muslims admitted about Amun, Vishnu, and Uhllah respectively).

The meanings of these words and other epithets related to them make it clear what ideas were connected to them and that they were used to refer to ULT.

All these various cultures from around the world not only had very similar or nearly identical understandings of ULT, seemingly based on logical necessity, but also had worship practices that were pretty much identical as well! They used to perform a ritual cleansing and approach worship at various times of the day and stand while reciting praises to ULT and prayers as a meditative exercise, along with bowing, kneeling, and performing the kowtow which was a universal gesture among cultures to remind oneself of our natural state of surrender towards the ULT by which we live and that moves all things and guides the course of all events and realities! The religion that most closely is compatible with most if not all of the ancient religions is the proto-religion represented by and spoken of in the Qur'an, and Muslims worship in the same fashion as the ancient Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Tibetans, Japanese, and even those in the Americas both in North and South America and throughout Africa and among the Germanics and the Celtics and pretty much everyone! I mention the Celts because of Crom worshipped on the "plain of prostration", but the worship form and performance of the kowtow and other expressions of worship were recorded among all these people (and exist among some even today)!

So a person can essentially be all religions if they understand them in a way that makes them compatible!

Many ancient cultures or "myths" were actually talking about natural and even scientific things or conceptual ideas using personified and anthropomorphized versions of those items. One can see when this happens by understanding the meaning of the "names" of the various things that some people call "gods", which would better be translated as "powers" and are sometimes just words meant to represent concepts, like "Mithra" means "contract" or "covenant" which is a reference to the concept of a "divine covenant" but also the idea of contracts in general. The word "Dagon" means "wheat" for example, and the word Isis means "throne" and was a reference to the authority and dominion of ULT and as the authority bestowed by ULT upon the Pharoah. The term Ma'at means "truth" and is a reference to the ethical justice system and law. Though personified pictographic images were made of these things, they were not to be taken literally, as the images contained elements which made reference to various aspects of whatever was being spoken of and were likely understood by those who viewed them due to awareness of the culture in which those graphic elements would have certain meanings (and this is still the case of some Hindus today who create images of things where each element means something, though the problem with images is when people take them literally they can end up completely losing the meaning and understanding of things. The Vedic literature at times speaks strongly against the use of "murti" or images for the imageless and bodiless, infinite and all pervading ULT).

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Now for my political ideology, I believe that it is the natural tendency of ambitious people to form oligarchies that attempt to control people and that idealistic forms of Government are difficult to achieve and maintain in light of this natural tendency of people towards the formation of oligarchies that end up deeply corrupt.

I believe currently the majority of the world's natural and human resources are controlled by such an oligarchy, this time an oligarchy of corrupt people that can be called "Banksters" who care little for people besides themselves.

I think that the best policy is to live a normal and peaceful life, somewhat under the radar, and to speak the truth and spread information which may help to enlighten people and help them towards an at least somewhat beneficial existence with consideration to what is actually available and pragmatic.

I believe that the mainstream media around the world, but particularly the Western based or inspired media, totally lies outright and makes up stories at times that are completely false propaganda. I also believe that "false flag" operations are a reality, and have been proven to exist through cases such as NATO'S GLADIO, THE LAVON AFFAIR, and the attack on the USS LIBERTY, as well as other similar incidents which have been realized.

Since I think that it is very difficult to verify the truth about reports from far away places, let alone what even happens right on the other side of a wall in a home or shelter, that it is perhaps best in some cases not to stress over the drama on the news and instead to focus on loving and being loved by those you care to love and be loved by (including animals and buggies)!

I'm against cruelty, such as the cruelty performed by some governments or military operations.
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I believe all things should be treated with gentleness and respect, so I try not to harm creatures or plants or even to treat objects considered "non-living" with any harshness. I find that life exists through constant harm and killing, but I try to minimize it in my personal actions (but we eat living things constantly, killing plants and stuff to survive, and killing animals as well).

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I believe that "good" should be defined as what is "beneficial" and "evil" is whatever is "harmful" either immediately or eventually.

I think that the goal of everyone should be to avoid harm and to gain as much benefit as possible for themselves and those they care about, in this life and in case of another.

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I believe that we did not exist before we came to life, and thus were essentially "dead" but can not experience "death" or "nonexistence" or "not living" and can only experience cognition through "living" and "existence" in some form that perceives and interacts with information. So when a person dies, they may cease to experience any information, and thus can not know or experience their "dead" phase, and the next thing they can possibly experience is "life" again. So if a person is dead for even a very long time it wouldn't matter as much, but if they ever are provided a way to interact with information again it will be the next thing they know, so its like having a dreamless sleep for a while and waking up if we ever "wake up" again.

If one does wake up, then the concern should be if we end up facing any repercussions for our activities on Earth as the Ancients claimed, as ULT contains all information and among all information is the record of all things.

So I believe it is the safest and best policy to live wisely and in a gentle and kind fashion, doing good such as charity, helping those in need, spreading the well sourced and most accurate truth, and being just but tempering justice with mercy and forgiveness when possible.

That is a general description of my religious philosophy and political ideology!