Post: #61

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Any chance we might get more primal?

Where does the need for a god or King stem from?

Both these ideas are rather complex systems already in place.

What is their root?

What is a king, and why did that thought or meme grow?

'King' can be defined as 'best'... It is also synonymous with 'god'...

Either the best suited to lead an individual or collective action, or the closest to the original intent or 'father' by direct relation.

Animals do not seem to understand anything other than 'size'... How far down do you want to go?

Post: #62

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

what of Revelations 11:3 ??

And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”


since it was Jesus Christ who granted the authority for the 1,260 days, is Jesus Christ the "False Prophet" you speak of ??

I'm referring to Revelation 13:5... 42 months = 1,260 days for a person, but for an egregore it's years.

Same time period, but no, Jesus is not the False Prophet. The two Witnesses though are Egregores.

so what is the source of the '1,260 years' then ??

God showed Ezekiel that 'prophetic' days = years. Since bible prophecy concerns 'spiritual things', and both egregores and nephilim are 'spirits', i made the connection. I'm definitely not the only one who uses the day/year principle for interpreting bible prophecy.

Post: #63

GUANO  Wrote:

The Two Anointed Ones stand before the God of the earth... They are not two humans, try hundreds of thousands if not millions of humans. Think of the constant theme of the 'branches' which Jesus uses to identify the branches within the organization of 'His Body'...

consider that the two witnesses is simply all about '2'

again, as in Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created two

Post: #64

GUANO  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

I'm referring to Revelation 13:5... 42 months = 1,260 days for a person, but for an egregore it's years.

Same time period, but no, Jesus is not the False Prophet. The two Witnesses though are Egregores.

so what is the source of the '1,260 years' then ??

God showed Ezekiel that 'prophetic' days = years. Since bible prophecy concerns 'spiritual things', and both egregores and nephilim are 'spirits', i made the connection. I'm definitely not the only one who uses the day/year principle for interpreting bible prophecy.

Ok, who provided the authority spoken of in Revelations 13:5 ??

Post: #65

One thing about a king is that he can ultimately be held responsible (in the mind, and thus bring closure). The thing about a democratic egregore is that it can't be held responsible for anything... This is talked about in the Book of Enoch when speaking of the nature of the nephilim and fallen watchers, it says something to the effect that they will receive no judgement until the 'end'... I'll post some of that tomorrow.

Post: #66

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

The Two Anointed Ones stand before the God of the earth... They are not two humans, try hundreds of thousands if not millions of humans. Think of the constant theme of the 'branches' which Jesus uses to identify the branches within the organization of 'His Body'...

consider that the two witnesses is simply all about '2'

again, as in Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created two

That's what they boil down to, but in their reference in revelation, it's speaking of the 'testimony' of the 2 'archetypes' of human beings (which, in turn, represent the original '2').

Post: #67

I find Jaynes' theory of kingship and god as arising from the bicameral mind fascinating.

Julian Jaynes


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Julian Jaynes (February 27, 1920 – November 21, 1997) was an American psychologist, best known for his book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (1976), in which he argued that ancient peoples were not conscious.

Jaynes defines "consciousness" more narrowly than most philosophers. Jaynes' definition of consciousness is synonymous with what philosophers call "meta-consciousness" or "meta-awareness" i.e. awareness of awareness, thoughts about thinking, desires about desires, beliefs about beliefs. This form of reflection is also distinct from the kinds of "deliberations" seen in other higher animals such as crows insofar as Jaynesian consciousness is dependent on linguistic cognition.

Jaynes wrote that ancient humans before roughly 1200 BC were not reflectively meta-conscious and operated by means of automatic, nonconscious habit-schemas. Instead of having meta-consciousness, these humans were constituted by what Jaynes calls the "bicameral mind". For bicameral humans, when habit did not suffice to handle novel stimuli and stress rose at the moment of decision, neural activity in the "dominant" (left) hemisphere was modulated by auditory verbal hallucinations originating in the so-called "silent" (right) hemisphere (particularly the right temporal cortex), which were heard as the voice of a chieftain or god and immediately obeyed.

Jaynes wrote, "[For bicameral humans], volition came as a voice that was in the nature of a neurological command, in which the command and the action were not separated, in which to hear was to obey."[1] Jaynes argued that the change from bicamerality to consciousness (linguistic meta-cognition) occurred over a period of centuries beginning around 1200 BC. The selection pressure for Jaynesian consciousness as a means for cognitive control is due, in part, to chaotic social disorganizations and the development of new methods of behavioral control such as writing.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes

In ancient times, Jaynes noted, gods were generally much more numerous and much more anthropomorphic than in modern times, and speculates that this was because each bicameral person had their own "god" who reflected their own desires and experiences.[3] He also noted that in ancient societies the corpses of the dead were often treated as though still alive (being seated, dressed and even fed) and argued that the dead bodies were presumed to be still living and the source of auditory hallucinations (see ancestor worship).[2] This adaptation to the village communities of 100 individuals or more formed the core of religion. Unlike today's hallucinations, the voices of ancient times were structured by cultural norms to produce a seamlessly functioning society. In Ancient Greek culture there is often mention of the Logos, which is a very similar concept. It was a type of guiding voice that was heard as from a seemingly external source.

Jaynes inferred that these "voices" came from the right brain counterparts of the left brain language centres—specifically, the counterparts to Wernicke's area and Broca's area. These regions are somewhat dormant in the right brains of most modern humans, but Jaynes noted that some studies show that auditory hallucinations correspond to increased activity in these areas of the brain.[2]

Even in modern times, Jaynes notes that there is no consensus as to the cause or origins of schizophrenia (the subject is still hotly debated). According to Jaynes, schizophrenia is simply a vestige of humanity's earlier state.[2] Recent evidence shows that many schizophrenics don't just hear random voices but experience "command hallucinations" instructing their behavior or urging them to commit certain acts. As support for Jaynes's argument, these command hallucinations are little different from the commands from gods which feature so prominently in ancient stories.[2] Indirect evidence supporting Jaynes's theory that hallucinations once played an important role in human mentality can be found in the recent book Muses, Madmen, and Prophets: Rethinking the History, Science, and Meaning of Auditory Hallucination by Daniel Smith.[4]

[edit] Breakdown of bicameralism

Jaynes theorized that a shift from bicameralism marked the beginning of introspection and consciousness as we know it today. According to Jaynes, this bicameral mentality began malfunctioning or "breaking down" during the second millennium BC. He speculates that primitive ancient societies tended to collapse periodically, (as in Egypt's Intermediate Periods and the periodically vanishing cities of the Mayas) as changes in the environment strained the socio-cultural equilibria sustained by this bicameral mindset. The mass migrations of the second millennium BC, caused by Mediterranean-wide earthquakes, created a rash of unexpected situations and stresses that required ancient minds to become more flexible and creative. Self-awareness, or consciousness, was the culturally evolved solution to this problem. This necessity of communicating commonly observed phenomena among individuals who shared no common language or cultural upbringing encouraged those communities to become self-aware to survive in a new environment. Thus consciousness, like bicamerality, emerged as a neurological adaptation to social complexity in a changing world.

Jaynes further argues that divination, prayer and oracles arose during this breakdown period, in an attempt to summon instructions from the "gods" whose voices could no longer be heard.[2] The consultation of special bicamerally operative individuals, or of casting lots and so forth, was a response to this loss, a transitional era depicted for example in the book of 1 Samuel. It was also evidenced in children who could communicate with the gods, but as their neurology was set by language and society they gradually lost that ability. Those who continued prophesying, being bicameral according to Jaynes, could be killed.[5][6] Leftovers of the bicameral mind today, according to Jaynes, include religion, hypnosis, possession, schizophrenia and the general sense of need for external authority in decision-making.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_...meral_Mind

Post: #68

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

so what is the source of the '1,260 years' then ??

God showed Ezekiel that 'prophetic' days = years. Since bible prophecy concerns 'spiritual things', and both egregores and nephilim are 'spirits', i made the connection. I'm definitely not the only one who uses the day/year principle for interpreting bible prophecy.

Ok, who provided the authority spoken of in Revelations 13:5 ??

The Dragon... Which is yet another Egregore lol...

Post: #69

GUANO  Wrote:

One thing about a king is that he can ultimately be held responsible (in the mind, and thus bring closure).

in all places, in the mind, in the books, on the tongues....

Jesus Christ is subject to these conditions as would any 'king'

Post: #70

David  Wrote:

I find Jaynes' theory of kingship and god as arising from the bicameral mind fascinating.

Julian Jaynes


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Julian Jaynes (February 27, 1920 – November 21, 1997) was an American psychologist, best known for his book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (1976), in which he argued that ancient peoples were not conscious.

Jaynes defines "consciousness" more narrowly than most philosophers. Jaynes' definition of consciousness is synonymous with what philosophers call "meta-consciousness" or "meta-awareness" i.e. awareness of awareness, thoughts about thinking, desires about desires, beliefs about beliefs. This form of reflection is also distinct from the kinds of "deliberations" seen in other higher animals such as crows insofar as Jaynesian consciousness is dependent on linguistic cognition.

Jaynes wrote that ancient humans before roughly 1200 BC were not reflectively meta-conscious and operated by means of automatic, nonconscious habit-schemas. Instead of having meta-consciousness, these humans were constituted by what Jaynes calls the "bicameral mind". For bicameral humans, when habit did not suffice to handle novel stimuli and stress rose at the moment of decision, neural activity in the "dominant" (left) hemisphere was modulated by auditory verbal hallucinations originating in the so-called "silent" (right) hemisphere (particularly the right temporal cortex), which were heard as the voice of a chieftain or god and immediately obeyed.

Jaynes wrote, "[For bicameral humans], volition came as a voice that was in the nature of a neurological command, in which the command and the action were not separated, in which to hear was to obey."[1] Jaynes argued that the change from bicamerality to consciousness (linguistic meta-cognition) occurred over a period of centuries beginning around 1200 BC. The selection pressure for Jaynesian consciousness as a means for cognitive control is due, in part, to chaotic social disorganizations and the development of new methods of behavioral control such as writing.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes

In ancient times, Jaynes noted, gods were generally much more numerous and much more anthropomorphic than in modern times, and speculates that this was because each bicameral person had their own "god" who reflected their own desires and experiences.[3] He also noted that in ancient societies the corpses of the dead were often treated as though still alive (being seated, dressed and even fed) and argued that the dead bodies were presumed to be still living and the source of auditory hallucinations (see ancestor worship).[2] This adaptation to the village communities of 100 individuals or more formed the core of religion. Unlike today's hallucinations, the voices of ancient times were structured by cultural norms to produce a seamlessly functioning society. In Ancient Greek culture there is often mention of the Logos, which is a very similar concept. It was a type of guiding voice that was heard as from a seemingly external source.

Jaynes inferred that these "voices" came from the right brain counterparts of the left brain language centres—specifically, the counterparts to Wernicke's area and Broca's area. These regions are somewhat dormant in the right brains of most modern humans, but Jaynes noted that some studies show that auditory hallucinations correspond to increased activity in these areas of the brain.[2]

Even in modern times, Jaynes notes that there is no consensus as to the cause or origins of schizophrenia (the subject is still hotly debated). According to Jaynes, schizophrenia is simply a vestige of humanity's earlier state.[2] Recent evidence shows that many schizophrenics don't just hear random voices but experience "command hallucinations" instructing their behavior or urging them to commit certain acts. As support for Jaynes's argument, these command hallucinations are little different from the commands from gods which feature so prominently in ancient stories.[2] Indirect evidence supporting Jaynes's theory that hallucinations once played an important role in human mentality can be found in the recent book Muses, Madmen, and Prophets: Rethinking the History, Science, and Meaning of Auditory Hallucination by Daniel Smith.[4]

[edit] Breakdown of bicameralism

Jaynes theorized that a shift from bicameralism marked the beginning of introspection and consciousness as we know it today. According to Jaynes, this bicameral mentality began malfunctioning or "breaking down" during the second millennium BC. He speculates that primitive ancient societies tended to collapse periodically, (as in Egypt's Intermediate Periods and the periodically vanishing cities of the Mayas) as changes in the environment strained the socio-cultural equilibria sustained by this bicameral mindset. The mass migrations of the second millennium BC, caused by Mediterranean-wide earthquakes, created a rash of unexpected situations and stresses that required ancient minds to become more flexible and creative. Self-awareness, or consciousness, was the culturally evolved solution to this problem. This necessity of communicating commonly observed phenomena among individuals who shared no common language or cultural upbringing encouraged those communities to become self-aware to survive in a new environment. Thus consciousness, like bicamerality, emerged as a neurological adaptation to social complexity in a changing world.

Jaynes further argues that divination, prayer and oracles arose during this breakdown period, in an attempt to summon instructions from the "gods" whose voices could no longer be heard.[2] The consultation of special bicamerally operative individuals, or of casting lots and so forth, was a response to this loss, a transitional era depicted for example in the book of 1 Samuel. It was also evidenced in children who could communicate with the gods, but as their neurology was set by language and society they gradually lost that ability. Those who continued prophesying, being bicameral according to Jaynes, could be killed.[5][6] Leftovers of the bicameral mind today, according to Jaynes, include religion, hypnosis, possession, schizophrenia and the general sense of need for external authority in decision-making.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_...meral_Mind

This 'meta-consciousness' can be said to also be the 'deciding factor' as to what the ancients thought constituted a 'god'... (The ability to perceive right and wrong)...

What gave humans this 'meta-consciousness'... what is the 'apple'?

Post: #71

GUANO  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

God showed Ezekiel that 'prophetic' days = years. Since bible prophecy concerns 'spiritual things', and both egregores and nephilim are 'spirits', i made the connection. I'm definitely not the only one who uses the day/year principle for interpreting bible prophecy.

Ok, who provided the authority spoken of in Revelations 13:5 ??

The Dragon... Which is yet another Egregore lol...

other than in Revelation 13, where can this Dragon be found ??

Post: #72

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

One thing about a king is that he can ultimately be held responsible (in the mind, and thus bring closure).

in all places, in the mind, in the books, on the tongues....

Jesus Christ is subject to these conditions as would any 'king'

I understand that.

Post: #73

LoP Guest  Wrote:

GUANO  Wrote:

LoP Guest  Wrote:

Ok, who provided the authority spoken of in Revelations 13:5 ??

The Dragon... Which is yet another Egregore lol...

other than in Revelation 13, where can this Dragon be found ??

It is the "Diverse Beast" spoken of by Daniel... Daniel 7. It has 10 horns also, but it gives it's horns (power) to the beast with seven heads... lol

Post: #74

null

Post: #75

GUANO  Wrote:

(The ability to perceive right and wrong)...

perceiving right and wrong is easy

explaining what is 'right and wrong' with spoken words and written texts is the hard part

especially with an ambiguous tongue such as English