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Is Allah the God of Abraham?
FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 04:55 AM

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Post: #31
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
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OK! HERE I GO!!!!! AHHHH I'M SO EXCITED!

OK OK!

The words are meant to refer to the same entity.

Elohim is a plural intensive form, meaning the 'im' at the end indicates the greatness or multitude of powers related to the main part which is most often transliterated as Eloah but what is being transliterated is actually A.L.H Alif being the first part which is a glottal stop, pronounced like "uh" so the word is pronounced Uhllaw in semitic languages (which includes Akkadian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, and Arabic mainly).

Ellaha or Allaha or Ellah are all roman text transliterations of the word meaning God, always pronounced Uhllaw.

All these words refer to God. Some say that Allah is a combination of Al and Ilah meaning The God, and it also has an extra L in it but these aren't really serious points because it is just the Arabic word meaning God or The God, the Supreme God, while Illah means something that is worshiped or a power or something, and the Muslim creed is generally There is no Illah but Allah which can be translated as there is no deity (or anything worthy of worship) but The (Ultimate) God.

Anyway, despite being the same word, with the same root, and the same meaning THEY ARE DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!

THAT IS THE PART I WAS EXCITED ABOUT! AHHHHHHH!

Why are they different? Well! Muslims generally consider the Qur'an as the primary source text which deals with most matters pertaining to their religion.

The Jewish people consider the books of what is called the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible or Torah to be a primary source text for their religion.

The Christian people consider the books included in the Bible considered most relevant to their sects to be the most important source text for their religion, and this often if not always includes the Hebrew Bible, also called the Tanakh.

The Muslims often say that Allah and the God of the Bible are the same, and the Qur'an itself affirms that the God of the Christians and the Jews is Allah, and the same word is used by them all (this is especially uncontroversial among Arab Christians and Arabic speaking Jews)

Though the Muslims often say this, it is likely that most muslims are unfamiliar with what the Bible actually contains when they say this, and assume it is similar to the Qur'an and contains the Qur'an's stories.

Though the stories in the two books have similarities at times, and the names of the people mentioned seem to be references to the same characters among the two books in many cases, the books are very different and the way the characters are described and the stories that are mentioned about them and the attitude with which they are dealt is entirely different.

If a sincere Muslim who knows the Qur'an well and has a sincere admiration and love for the characters mentioned in the Qur'an were to read the Bible carefully, though would likely reject it outright, and may become extremely angry about what is contained within.

This is because the Qur'an describes the characters mentioned in the Bible in a very positive light, they appear to be really good, sensitive, kind hearted people, while the Bible describes them in ways that the sincere Muslim would find almost totally abhorrent.

Similarly, the way the Bible describes God is different in some ways from the way the Qur'an describes God, and the way the God of the Qur'an talks is different from the way the God of the Bible apparently seems to talk.

The way the God of the Bible seems to be described would also likely insult Muslims who are well versed in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an explains this similarly to how Jeremiah 8:8 explains it, the scribes apparently altered the Torah during its years of transmission, and it ended up corrupted from the original form it was given in, which the Muslims might believe would resemble the Qur'an more.

The Qur'an is different from the Bible because of the style it is written in. It is written as though God is speaking directly to the reader (or Muhammed).

The God of the Bible commands things that the God of the Qur'an would appear to be against, for example the command to massacre all the women, children, and suckling babies, as well as all the animals of the Amalekites.

To put it simply, though the God of the Qur'an does promise punishment for evil people, the God of the Bible is different in several ways due to the way the God of the Bible seems to over-do it sometimes and also has regrets and things that the God of the Qur'an doesn't have.

One could say the God of the Bible is more human seeming, while the God of the Qur'an is clearly not intended to be a human or anything with a form, but rather the Ultimate Reality and Power which sustains all life and experience, animating it, and ultimately controlling it precisely, pervading everywhere, inside and out, closer than the jugular vein, surrounding everything everywhere.

The Bible has verses which confirm this idea of God, but also has verses which seem to depict God in more anthropomorphic terms more often than the Qur'an.

The Jewish idea of God is similar to the Muslim idea on the surface, but since they rely on different books for the idea, and the God performed various acts differently, the God ends up being different in some ways. The Muslim will hopefully not find a need to justify the atrocities demanded by the God of the Bible, since they could easily reject such things as a corruption, since the God of the Qur'an does not behave like that generally.

The Jews and the Muslims both generally believe in an Ultimate God when they are well versed in the scriptures, and this goes for the Christians as well, BUT:

Many Christians, and perhaps some less knowledgeable Jews may imagine God as a humanoid form, an old man in the sky, with immense power, but with the passions of a person in many senses.

Most Christians (Catholics being the largest sect currently, followed by other Trinitarian sects such as the majority of Protestants) came to believe in a Trinitarian God after the various councils held and enforced by Roman authority.

The Trinitarian God is very different from the God of the Muslims, and also different from the God of the Jews despite Christians depending on a large number of texts that the Jewish people also use.

The Oneness of Allah or the Monotheism in Islam is an important factor in Islam, and this is called Tawheed.

The Trinity appears problematic to Muslims, who might consider it an act of 'shirk' which means the "sharing" of power with Allah, basically to say there are other powers, forces, or identities besides Allah which are co-creators with Allah.

In Mormonism, Elohim is considered God the Father, while Jehovah (a European transliteration of YHWH) is considered Jesus. Together with the Holy Spirit, they make up what is called the "Godhead" while being three distinct entities, like a team, and at least God the Father and Jesus both have bodies, and Jesus is the literal son of God while the Holy Spirit remains bodiless.

Mainstream Christians are generally supposed to believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are actually all different aspects or manifestations of the same One God, and thus they maintain that they are monotheists, while the Mormons might be considered henotheists at best (since they often say they only worship God the Father) though many consider them polytheists.

Jesus is considered the Word (Logos) of God, co-eternal with God as God, and manifested as Jesus, the living incarnation of God and also the begotten son of God born to the virgin Mary.

The Qur'an says that Jesus is a messenger of God, and is greatly respected, and even the miraculous birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary is included in the Qur'an as a miracle of God, but Jesus is not considered the literal begotten son of God, and God is not considered a humanoid, and God has no children nor is God one to have children (since God is not considered a creature or organism or one that biologically reproduces or reproduces at all, but rather creates and manifests things from nothing, a unique ability exclusive to Allah).

The word God is used by many people, but each person may have a unique idea about what they are saying.

Though Alah and Alaheim can be alternate transliterations for the same word used in the Bible and most often transliterated as Eloah and El and Elohim, the term means to refer to the same entity, the Supreme God, though the Bible and the Qur'an are different, and the descriptions of things said and done by God between these two books may also differ.

The word was used by the Akkadians and other ancient civilizations, and Uhllah may be one of the oldest known words for God.

Here is a Jewish person explaining some of the same as I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh92Mlp3Tlw

Here something from the start of Clarke's Commentary on the Bible:

"As the word Elohim is the term by which the Divine Being is most generally expressed in the Old Testament, it may be necessary to consider it here more at large. It is a maxim that admits of no controversy,

that every noun in the Hebrew language is derived from a verb, which is usually termed the radix or root, from which, not only the noun, but all the different flections of the verb, spring.

This radix is the third person singular of the preterite or past tense. The ideal meaning of this root expresses some essential property of the thing which it designates, or of which it is an appellative.

The root in Hebrew, and in its sister language, the Arabic, generally consists of three letters, and every word must be traced to its root in order to ascertain its genuine meaning, for there alone is this meaning to be found.

In Hebrew and Arabic this is essentially necessary, and no man can safely criticise on any word in either of these languages who does not carefully attend to this point.


I mention the Arabic with the Hebrew for two reasons.

1. Because the two languages evidently spring from the same source, and have very nearly the same mode of construction.

2. Because the deficient roots in the Hebrew Bible are to be sought for in the Arabic language. The reason of this must be obvious, when it is considered that the whole of the Hebrew language is lost except what is in the Bible, and even a part of this book is written in Chaldee.

Now, as the English Bible does not contain the whole of the English language, so the Hebrew Bible does not contain the whole of the Hebrew.

If a man meet with an English word which he cannot find in an ample concordance or dictionary to the Bible, he must of course seek for that word in a general English dictionary. In like manner, if a particular form of a Hebrew word occur that cannot be traced to a root in the Hebrew Bible, because the word does not occur in the third person singular of the past tense in the Bible, it is expedient, it is perfectly lawful, and often indispensably necessary, to seek the deficient root in the Arabic. For as the

Arabic is still a living language, and perhaps the most copious in the universe, it may well be expected to furnish those terms which are deficient in the Hebrew Bible.

And the reasonableness of this is founded on another maxim, viz., that either the Arabic was derived from the Hebrew, or the Hebrew from the Arabic. I shall not enter into this controversy;

there are great names on both sides, and the decision of the question in either way will have the same effect on my argument. For if the Arabic were derived from the Hebrew, it must have been when the Hebrew was a living and complete language, because such is the Arabic now; and therefore all its essential roots we may reasonably expect to find there: but if, as Sir William Jones supposed, the Hebrew were derived from the Arabic, the same expectation is justified, the deficient roots in Hebrew may be sought for in the mother tongue.

If, for example, we meet with a term in our ancient English language the meaning of which we find difficult to ascertain, common sense teaches us that we should seek for it in the Anglo-Saxon, from which our language springs; and, if necessary, go up to the Teutonic, from which the Anglo-Saxon was derived.

No person disputes the legitimacy of this measure, and we find it in constant practice. I make these observations at the very threshold of my work, because the necessity of acting on this principle (seeking deficient Hebrew roots in the Arabic) may often occur, and I wish to speak once for all on the subject.

The first sentence in the Scripture shows the propriety of having recourse to this principle. We have seen that the word אלהים Elohim is plural; we have traced our term God to its source, and have seen its signification; and also a general definition of the thing or being included under this term, has been tremblingly attempted.

We should now trace the original to its root, but this root does not appear in the Hebrew Bible. Were the Hebrew a complete language, a pious reason might be given for this omission, viz., "As God is without beginning and without cause, as his being is infinite and underived, the Hebrew language consults strict propriety in giving no root whence his name can be deduced."

Mr. Parkhurst, to whose pious and learned labors in Hebrew literature most Biblical students are indebted, thinks he has found the root in אלה alah, he swore, bound himself by oath; Most pious minds will revolt from such a definition, and will be glad with me

to find both the noun and the root preserved in Arabic. Allah is the common name for God in the Arabic tongue, and often the emphatic is used. Now both these words are derived from the root alaha, he worshipped, adored, was struck with astonishment, fear, or terror; and hence, he adored with sacred horror and veneration, Doh'mains sacro horrore ac veneratione coluit, adoravit - Wilmet.

Hence ilahon, fear, veneration, and also the object of religious fear, the Deity, the supreme God, the tremendous Being.

This is not a new idea; God was considered in the same light among the ancient Hebrews; and hence Jacob swears by the fear of his father Isaac, Genesis 31:53. To complete the definition, Golius renders alaha, juvit, liberavit, et tutatus fuit, "he succoured, liberated, kept in safety, or defended."

Thus from the ideal meaning of this most expressive root, we acquire the most correct notion of the Divine nature; for we learn that God is the sole object of adoration; that the perfections of his nature are such as must astonish all those who piously contemplate them, and fill with horror all who would dare to give his glory to another, or break his commandments; that consequently he should be worshipped with reverence and religious fear; and that every sincere worshipper may expect from him help in all his weaknesses, trials, difficulties, temptations, etc.,; freedom from the power, guilt, nature, and consequences of sin; and to be supported, defended, and saved to the uttermost, and to the end."

YHWH is a term used in the Bible, which appears to mean the following:

"he word YHWH is made up of Y, meaning "he", plus a form of HWY, the root of a group of words connected with "being" and "becoming".[13] Frank Moore Cross has advanced the hypothesis that the name Yahweh is an abbreviation, in which the theophoric element el has been dropped, thus giving yhwh-'l or "El-Yahweh",[14] which would parallel "El-Shaddai" and "El-Elyon". El was the chief god of the Canaanite pantheon, and El-YHWH is still attested as an epithet, 'El, who shows himself' in a few places in the Old Testament (in Psalm 50:1, for example). It would have originated as a description of El's appearance and blessing: "El who shows himself".[15]"

^ 'It is generally accepted that this name is a yaqtil-form of the Semitic stem HWY ('to be').'Stefan Paas, Creation and judgement: creation texts in some eighth century prophets,BRILL, 2003 p.137
^ However, nowhere in the Old Testament has any trace been left behind on the complete name yhwh-'l.' Stefan Paas, ibid. p.138.
^ Paas (2003), pp.137–139

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 04:58 AM

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Post: #32
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Sia  Wrote: (04-11-2012 03:04 AM)
paging freedom stands, paging freedom stands....

about american fundamentalists, little do they know the jews they worship believe allah is the same as their god adonai/lord...and discount the christians as polytheists

Here I am!!!!!!!

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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vintagevixen
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04-11-2012 04:58 AM

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Post: #33
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Edmond dantes nli  Wrote: (04-11-2012 03:27 AM)
Yes.

Agreed, to the best of my knowledge, the Judaic, Mohammedan and Christian base of religion is Abraham....it's the books.

So just put that in your pipe and ponder it....

vv

Live Free or Die
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Michael Alan Keith
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04-11-2012 05:01 AM

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Post: #34
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Ellaha or Allaha or Ellah are all roman text transliterations of the word meaning God, always pronounced Uhllaw.


Elah and Allah do not have the same root.

Allah is quite literally "The God" in Arabic.

Elah means awesome. It is not always used in reference to the Hebrew God.

The person who wrote all of that perhaps has good intention of unification, but is none the less wrong.
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Janus
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04-11-2012 05:04 AM

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Post: #35
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Kentucky Fried Genocide  Wrote: (04-11-2012 02:47 AM)
Serious question...my bible thumping co workers were going crazy today telling me its not the same god yadda yadda wtf ever..if they(muslims) say its the same god whos to say its not?

any ideas LoP?

As far as I can tell from Islamic documents, Muslims worship the same
God as Jews. Allah however, is also worshiped by Muslims.

Allah and God are separate to Muslilms, though many can't find their
asses with two hands and flashlight and oddly are vehemently anti-Christ.

In Islam, Christ was just a man. Mohammed is the prophet, to be worshipped
with violent acts against everyone who is not Muslim, and those who are
Muslim but not Arab, and those who are Muslim but not male, and those
who are Muslim but not sufficiently paying enough to the Imama, and
those who are not cowtowing to sharia law both male and female.

When law is made meaningless for some, law becomes meaningless for all.
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FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 05:04 AM

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Post: #36
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Free Range Humans  Wrote: (04-11-2012 04:21 AM)
A completely different deity worshipped in the Hejaz long before it's exposure to Judaism or Christianity via traveling merchants who settled there.

It was grafted into the biblical epoch as a bit of creative license as were the people of the Hejaz. Essentially a replacement theology and not a very adroit one since it's founder was illiterate and nothing was written down until after he was dead.

The Kaaba was a unified shrine for idols, Islamic claims that it was built by Abraham are fanciful at best since Abraham never went there and even if he did he wasn't there long enough to build anything and the construction of it is never mentioned in any far more ancient text.

Allah and his daughters Al-Lat, Al-Munat and Al-Uzza had a completely different religion and mythology prior to the exposure of the Arabs to the influences of Judaism and Christianity.
Actually, Abraham building various things and the idea of setting up a stone and stuff are all recorded in the Bible.

Bethel means House of Allah.

The Valley of Becca, the exact location of which is not known, seems to be a place of pilgrimage even in ancient times, the location of the House of God even, and Becca is the old name for Mecca. That may also be why Jewish people were stationed in that region as well.

Here is a muslim convert, former Christian, mentioning it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5WBdc1c3bs

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 05:07 AM

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Post: #37
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Buster  Wrote: (04-11-2012 05:01 AM)
Ellaha or Allaha or Ellah are all roman text transliterations of the word meaning God, always pronounced Uhllaw.


Elah and Allah do not have the same root.

Allah is quite literally "The God" in Arabic.

Elah means awesome. It is not always used in reference to the Hebrew God.

The person who wrote all of that perhaps has good intention of unification, but is none the less wrong.

They have the same root or radix, ALH being the root.

Yeah, some people say Allah means The God as a contraction of Al Ilah, but that isn't conclusive, and everyone agrees that the root is still the same among the words Allah and Ilah and Alalu and El and Elohim, and Eloah, and Allaha generally. The root is made up of the main letters or sounds. Like the root of the word Islam is SLM, though Islam doesnt mean Salam, but contains the concept within the root.

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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(This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 05:10 AM by FreedomStands.) Quote this message in a reply
FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 05:10 AM

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Post: #38
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Anyone interested in this topic can also visit my thread! I discuss lots of things, including other religions outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam!

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 05:15 AM

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Post: #39
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
vintagevixen  Wrote: (04-11-2012 04:58 AM)
Edmond dantes nli  Wrote: (04-11-2012 03:27 AM)
Yes.

Agreed, to the best of my knowledge, the Judaic, Mohammedan and Christian base of religion is Abraham....it's the books.

So just put that in your pipe and ponder it....

vv

Edmond Dantes (and this isn't mockery) is an actual Muslim Samurai, and that is awesome!!!!

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 05:19 AM

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Post: #40
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Kentucky Fried Genocide  Wrote: (04-11-2012 03:45 AM)
thats the thing they say Allah is a lunar god..or something..hence the crescent, i say jesus is a solar messiah, its all bs to me, im just curious :) thanks for the info

The crescent moon symbol is Pre Islamic and used by people other than the Arabs, such as the Turks as well who later became Muslims.

The word for moon in Arabic is Qamar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_star

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vintagevixen
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04-11-2012 05:30 AM

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Post: #41
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
FreedomStands  Wrote: (04-11-2012 05:15 AM)
vintagevixen  Wrote: (04-11-2012 04:58 AM)
Edmond dantes nli  Wrote: (04-11-2012 03:27 AM)
Yes.

Agreed, to the best of my knowledge, the Judaic, Mohammedan and Christian base of religion is Abraham....it's the books.

So just put that in your pipe and ponder it....

vv

Edmond Dantes (and this isn't mockery) is an actual Muslim Samurai, and that is awesome!!!!


No way! I love it. Always liked Edmond.

Hell I just saw an article today on huffpo that in Gaza they are loving their cats. Cheer

vv

Live Free or Die
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LoP Guest
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04-11-2012 05:34 AM

 



Post: #42
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Kentucky Fried Genocide  Wrote: (04-11-2012 02:47 AM)
Serious question...my bible thumping co workers were going crazy today telling me its not the same god yadda yadda wtf ever..if they(muslims) say its the same god whos to say its not?

any ideas LoP?

Allah is just the arabic word for God. Same God (Jehovah) if you have this belief system. Yahweh (as the name or entity) didn't come around until Moses.

I ascribe to a different belief, however. Most people say he's (Yahweh) the "same God", however they behave differently which leads me to believe that these 'Gods' are more or less leaders of their race/tribe, whatever race that might be. In the OT it more or less talks about multiple Gods (lesser Gods) and El (Jehovah) of the Elohim (race). Does that mean "aliens"? To me, it points in that direction.
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Free Range Humans
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04-11-2012 05:36 AM

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Post: #43
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Arabic is not the "Sister Language" of Hebrew, Aramaic is and Arabic is a much later derivative much like Italian is from Latin.

Arabic only replaced Aramaic and Greek via the conquests of Islam and using the word Allah came with the language and not a previous extant use of the word.

When the ancestors of Muslims were still drinking wine, eating pork and sacrificing virgins to idols the people of the biblical epoch called their God YAH which was a shortened form of the Tetragrammaton. El-Yah came into prominence in the 2nd temple era but I have no idea if it was the root of the Aramaic word for God which was Elah but I am thinking it's a pretty good match.

Al-Lah, Al-Lat, Al-Munat, Al-Uzza were contemporary pagan gods in the late 2nd temple era.

The idol of Al-Lah is the Black Stone and it is the last of the surviving idols from the Kaaba.
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 05:36 AM by Free Range Humans.) Quote this message in a reply
FreedomStands
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04-11-2012 05:38 AM

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Post: #44
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
Free Range Humans  Wrote: (04-11-2012 05:36 AM)
Arabic is not the "Sister Language" of Hebrew, Aramaic is and Arabic is a much later derivative much like Italian is from Latin.

Arabic only replaced Aramaic and Greek via the conquests of Islam and using the word Allah came with the language and not a previous extant use of the word.

When the ancestors of Muslims were still drinking wine, eating pork and sacrificing virgins to idols the people of the biblical epoch called their God YAH which was a shortened form of the Tetragrammaton. El-Yah came into prominence in the 2nd temple era but I have no idea if it was the root of the Aramaic word for God which was Elah but I am thinking it's a pretty good match.

Al-Lah, Al-Lat, Al-Munat, Al-Uzza were contemporary pagan gods in the late 2nd temple era.

The idol of Al-Lah is the Black Stone and it is the last of the surviving idols from the Kaaba.

Your info isn't really what the Western scholars say or agree with I think, sorry. Serious linguists, historians, archeologists, and others who are hopefully unbiased, would probably disagree with the story you just told or at least many parts of it.

The reason it is called the "sister" language by Clarke is because it comes from the same source. It is not derived from Hebrew, nor is Hebrew likely derived from it, but both come from a common source language. Aramaic is another related language, as well as the other languages I mentioned. You can read all that I posted above, I was careful about what I was saying, and all I presented was generally the mainstream scholarly opinion.

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Free Range Humans
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04-11-2012 05:45 AM

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Post: #45
RE: Is Allah the God of Abraham?
FreedomStands  Wrote: (04-11-2012 05:38 AM)
Free Range Humans  Wrote: (04-11-2012 05:36 AM)
Arabic is not the "Sister Language" of Hebrew, Aramaic is and Arabic is a much later derivative much like Italian is from Latin.

Arabic only replaced Aramaic and Greek via the conquests of Islam and using the word Allah came with the language and not a previous extant use of the word.

When the ancestors of Muslims were still drinking wine, eating pork and sacrificing virgins to idols the people of the biblical epoch called their God YAH which was a shortened form of the Tetragrammaton. El-Yah came into prominence in the 2nd temple era but I have no idea if it was the root of the Aramaic word for God which was Elah but I am thinking it's a pretty good match.

Al-Lah, Al-Lat, Al-Munat, Al-Uzza were contemporary pagan gods in the late 2nd temple era.

The idol of Al-Lah is the Black Stone and it is the last of the surviving idols from the Kaaba.

Your info isn't really what the Western scholars say or agree with I think, sorry. Serious linguists, historians, archeologists, and others who are hopefully unbiased, would probably disagree with the story you just told or at least many parts of it.

I know they would, they have spent a lot of time trying to intentionally disprove the bible. Many of them making careers of it but they can't disprove it, only disagree with it

For the record,there's very little in the way of J1 haplotype remains outside of the Arabian Peninsula prior to the expansion of Islam. This indicates they brought their language with them at the same time as their Y-DNA 1400 years ago.

Phoenician is the Mother Language of written Hebrew, what is the Mother Language of written Arabic again?
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 05:46 AM by Free Range Humans.) Quote this message in a reply












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