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Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
LoP Guest
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User ID: 88192
04-04-2012 09:18 AM

 



Post: #1
Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
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Received this email recently.
Thought it was atleast interesting enough to post here.
Don't know who this guy is but what he says makes a LOT of sense.



With Muslims establishing their own schools, one wonders how their kids will acquire our values and be able to successfully integrate into our society.

This incident happened in London.

The Uncomfortable Definition of an Infidel....

FACT: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK

Last month I attended my annual training session for maintaining my security clearance in the prison service.
There was a presentation by three speakers from the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained their beliefs.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say about the basics of Islam, complete with video.

After the presentations, question time. I directed my question to the Imam and asked: 'Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a Holy War against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?'

There was no disagreement with my statement and, without hesitation he replied, 'Non-believers!'

I responded, 'So let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not a follower of Allah, so they can have a place in heaven. Is that correct?'
The expression on his face changed from one of authority to that of a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the biscuit tin.'

He sheepishly replied, 'Yes.'

I then stated, 'Well, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope Benedict commanding all Catholics to kill Muslims, or the Archbishop of Canterbury ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a place in heaven!'
The Imam was speechless!

I continued, 'I also have a problem with being your 'friend' when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because He will take me to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?'

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam remained speechless.

Needless to say, the organizers of the Diversification seminar were not happy with this way of exposing the truth about the Muslims' beliefs.
Within twenty years, ie. 2031, there will be enough Muslim voters in the UK to elect a government of their choice, complete with Sharia law.

Everyone in the WORLD. should be required to read this, but with the current political paralysis, intolerant justice system, liberal media and P.C...madness, there is no way this will be widely publicised.

Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.

John Harrison MBE. MIDSc

No link with the email,sorry - just thought it was intelligently written and worth a read.Anon
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FreedomStands
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User ID: 14247
04-04-2012 09:23 AM

Posts: 24,911



Post: #2
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
I'm going to sheepishly reply "yes" as depicted in your post:

"BYeAeaAaAs"

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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Richard Eldritch
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04-04-2012 09:29 AM

Posts: 39,341



Post: #3
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Sorry mate but this is a load of bollocks on several levels. First off the fastest growing religion is atheism.
Second, many of these islamic tenets are just carried over from the medieval period, and most Muslim understand them in context as a historical tradition NOT a literal command. Granted some Islamic nutter do take them literally but in the UK at least they are a minority.
Third your figures of 20years before they can elect an Islamic Govenment is also nonsense. Muslims make up just 3-4 % of the population many of whom are from a secular background. It also assumes that other faiths don't have children and that Muslims can expand indefinatly, which anyone that know Britain knows is impossible due to planning laws and cultural bonds in indigenous comunitys
I conclude that this E mail is a EDL wind up or maybe even a BNP scheme.

Pope Barbie Imaculata Wrote: (Today 08:28 PM)

Would you like some cheezwhiz with your whine?
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FreedomStands
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04-04-2012 09:48 AM

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Post: #4
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
They might have been speechless at the ignorance of the speaker who claimed that Allah says to kill "infidels" (a word originally used by Christians towards muslims and everyone else) to go to heaven? While he claims Jesus says to love people haha lets read what Jesus said:

Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

and the Qur'an says:

2:190
Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors.

2:192
But if they cease (attacking and war), God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193
...but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

It is only talking about defensive war, when war is declared upon people, and they are attacked, then the muslim has the right to defend themselves and their families, which is only logical. The Qur'an repeatedly says to be forgiving, to ignore non-physical attacks, but it gives people the right to fight back when they need to survive and defend themselves.

The Old Testament suggests pre-emptive war and killing people for no reason other than their difference in religion, burning their entire cities the ground being one of the 613 commandments of the Bible, and this extends even to killing your own children if they even suggest the worship of another God or practice of another religion.

The New Testament, though it clearly states to bring forth the enemies of Jesus and slay them before Jesus as Jesus supposedly commands, it also says this:

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10:35
For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

Matthew 10:37
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

and

Luke 12:51
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Luke 12:52
From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.

Luke 12:53
They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

and with true malice towards humanity, also suggests not defending oneself in order to protect their bodies or their families but rather:

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

and finally:

Matthew 18:6 -
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:28 -
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark 9:42 -
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Everyone will be salted with fire.

_____________

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Easy-Rel...a-Nutshell
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(This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 09:54 AM by FreedomStands.) Quote this message in a reply
LoP Guest
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User ID: 88192
04-04-2012 09:49 AM

 



Post: #5
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Richard Eldritch  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:29 AM)
Sorry mate but this is a load of bollocks on several levels. First off the fastest growing religion is atheism.
Second, many of these islamic tenets are just carried over from the medieval period, and most Muslim understand them in context as a historical tradition NOT a literal command. Granted some Islamic nutter do take them literally but in the UK at least they are a minority.
Third your figures of 20years before they can elect an Islamic Govenment is also nonsense. Muslims make up just 3-4 % of the population many of whom are from a secular background. It also assumes that other faiths don't have children and that Muslims can expand indefinatly, which anyone that know Britain knows is impossible due to planning laws and cultural bonds in indigenous comunitys
I conclude that this E mail is a EDL wind up or maybe even a BNP scheme.

It's the Imam's reaction that I find VERY interesting
I agree,some of the other points seem to be speculation but if this conversation did take place,the Imam's reaction is VERY telling!
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FreedomStands
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User ID: 14247
04-04-2012 09:49 AM

Posts: 24,911



Post: #6
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Richard Eldritch  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:29 AM)
Sorry mate but this is a load of bollocks on several levels. First off the fastest growing religion is atheism.
Second, many of these islamic tenets are just carried over from the medieval period, and most Muslim understand them in context as a historical tradition NOT a literal command. Granted some Islamic nutter do take them literally but in the UK at least they are a minority.
Third your figures of 20years before they can elect an Islamic Govenment is also nonsense. Muslims make up just 3-4 % of the population many of whom are from a secular background. It also assumes that other faiths don't have children and that Muslims can expand indefinatly, which anyone that know Britain knows is impossible due to planning laws and cultural bonds in indigenous comunitys
I conclude that this E mail is a EDL wind up or maybe even a BNP scheme.

Great post! I really like it!

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Easy-Rel...a-Nutshell
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LoP Guest
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User ID: 88192
04-04-2012 09:54 AM

 



Post: #7
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
FreedomStands  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:48 AM)
They might have been speechless at the ignorance of the speaker who claimed that Allah says to kill "infidels" (a word originally used by Christians towards muslims and everyone else) to go to heaven? While he claims Jesus says to love people haha lets read what Jesus said:

Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

and the Qur'an says:

2:190
Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors.

2:192
But if they cease (attacking and war), God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193
...but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

It is only talking about defensive war, when war is declared upon people, and they are attacked, then the muslim has the right to defend themselves and their families, which is only logical. The Qur'an repeatedly says to be forgiving, to ignore non-physical attacks, but it gives people the right to fight back when they need to survive and defend themselves.

The Old Testament suggests pre-emptive war and killing people for no reason other than their difference in religion, burning their entire cities the ground being one of the 613 commandments of the Bible, and this extends even to killing your own children if they even suggest the worship of another God or practice of another religion.

The New Testament, though it clearly states to bring forth the enemies of Jesus and slay them before Jesus as Jesus supposedly commands, it also says this:

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10:35
For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

Matthew 10:37
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

and

Luke 12:51
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Luke 12:52
From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.

Luke 12:53
They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

and with true malice towards humanity, also suggests not defending oneself in order to protect their bodies or their families but rather:

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

and finally:

Matthew 18:6 -
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:28 -
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark 9:42 -
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Everyone will be salted with fire.

_____________

Intersting what comes out-very good Balkpqbp
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-Vod-
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User ID: 56113
04-04-2012 09:54 AM

Posts: 957



Post: #8
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
And even litterally the term infidel doesn't apply to any non-muslim. Indeed for example in Quran, Christians and Jews are considered as People of the Book, they aren't Infidels.
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FreedomStands
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04-04-2012 10:05 AM

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Post: #9
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
-Vod-  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:54 AM)
And even litterally the term infidel doesn't apply to any non-muslim. Indeed for example in Quran, Christians and Jews are considered as People of the Book, they aren't Infidels.

Good point, and the term "kaffir" which is the one people most often translate as infidel which is a word used by medieval Christians, means disbeliever generally, and even Zoroastrians (later on) and Sabians (in the Qur'an) were all treated as potential believers in God, and the Qur'an even says that paradise is not exclusive to any religious faction, but to any good people who believe and worship the Ultimate God and do good:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #62)

Surely, those who believe in Allah, and those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #69)

Verily, those who believe (in Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Majus, and those who worship others besides Allah, truly, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allah is over all things a Witness.
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #17)

______

To top it off, one is not allowed to attack anyone at all for any reason, other than being attacked, only defensive combat is allowed, it clearly says the muslim is not allowed to begin hostilities or be the aggressor in any combat situation and is to cease fighting when the enemy ceases attacking.

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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LoP Guest
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04-04-2012 10:05 AM

 



Post: #10
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
An Imam states that an Infidel is a "non-believer"-why would he still use this word (he didn't correct it) as a reference for a non-believer?
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FreedomStands
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04-04-2012 10:08 AM

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Post: #11
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Even though they were afraid and being attacked by an overwhelming force, the muslims hesitated fighting back, besides having their property stolen, being kicked out of their homes, and having the peace treaties broken:

Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah), and intended to expel the Messenger while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers.
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #13)

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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FreedomStands
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04-04-2012 10:10 AM

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Post: #12
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-04-2012 10:05 AM)
An Imam states that an Infidel is a "non-believer"-why would he still use this word (he didn't correct it) as a reference for a non-believer?

I'm pretty sure, if the email is even a true story, is the word used by the author of the story. Saying "Infidel" is pretty uncommon and is more like stereotype stuff. The term is kaffir, and most muslims say disbelievers, just as most translations of the Qur'an say disbelievers.

Infidel related to infidelity with God and is a deeply Christian concept rooted in the Bible which has a repeated marital theme going through it, where disbelievers are compared to adulterers who are cheating on God.

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Bicnarok
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04-04-2012 10:14 AM

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Post: #13
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Richard Eldritch  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:29 AM)
Sorry mate but this is a load of bollocks on several levels. First off the fastest growing religion is atheism.

Atheism isn´t a religion. The same way NOT stamp collecting isn´t a hobby.

One thing´s for sure, Atheists need to group up and make some sort of community, party or whatever so they can protect themselves from religous abuse in numbers more easily.

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FreedomStands
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User ID: 14247
04-04-2012 10:19 AM

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Post: #14
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Bicnarok  Wrote: (04-04-2012 10:14 AM)
Richard Eldritch  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:29 AM)
Sorry mate but this is a load of bollocks on several levels. First off the fastest growing religion is atheism.

Atheism isn´t a religion. The same way NOT stamp collecting isn´t a hobby.

One thing´s for sure, Atheists need to group up and make some sort of community, party or whatever so they can protect themselves from religous abuse in numbers more easily.

Atheists do have some groups but maybe aren't taken very seriously yet. Atheism should be considered a philosophy, which is the next closest thing to a religion and an important aspect of all religions is the philosophy it presents.

I believe there may be a time when it is mainly atheists and muslims. I think Christianity, though it may count its numbers as rather large all together, will fall in numbers, as it has been for a while, like in Catholicism which is the single largest faction of Christianity.

The Catholics admitted a few years ago that Sunni Islam is now the largest single religious denomination in the world.

EXPLAINING GOD THROUGH REASON
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Azrael
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04-04-2012 10:20 AM

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Post: #15
RE: Muslim religion-Definition of an Infidel
Richard Eldritch  Wrote: (04-04-2012 09:29 AM)
Sorry mate but this is a load of bollocks on several levels. First off the fastest growing religion is atheism.
Second, many of these islamic tenets are just carried over from the medieval period, and most Muslim understand them in context as a historical tradition NOT a literal command. Granted some Islamic nutter do take them literally but in the UK at least they are a minority.
Third your figures of 20years before they can elect an Islamic Govenment is also nonsense. Muslims make up just 3-4 % of the population many of whom are from a secular background. It also assumes that other faiths don't have children and that Muslims can expand indefinatly, which anyone that know Britain knows is impossible due to planning laws and cultural bonds in indigenous comunitys
I conclude that this E mail is a EDL wind up or maybe even a BNP scheme.

Richard the majority of what you say is quite correct, but faith schools or a sorry excuse at keeping Muslim kids away from other schools do exist. up here in the North as in places around London there are some quite secular areas where whole communities are from one religious background - it is not just Muslims, but the Jewish do this to. Having said that there are predominantly Christian and Catholic areas around churches.

Bolton for instance has a mainly Muslim area in Daubhill and Deane, also Blackburn Road - There ARE faith schools, also schools where 99% of the attendance is Islamic.

In Blackburn, Darwen, Burnley, Sheffield and several other you will see the same.

Unfortunately this is one of the FAILURES of the UK government over the years, whether it is a Conservative, LibDem or Labour mess - they all screwed up.

Having said that one thing the OP has touched upon is the amount of mixed nationals in councils. Yes I understand the need for a voice in the community - but MP's and Council Chambers??? I'm more for having community leaders not elected officials from countries that have not bothered to understand and respect the UK. For the most we do not have a problem with radicals in positions of power in the UK - yet!

I completely understand the need to keep faith, but integration is a must have - without out it you fan the flames of hatred and racism.

As for the rest you are right, probably EDL wind up and the government thing is garbage.

Beyond News - The Alternative To THAT 'Smaller' Forum chuckle
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 10:24 AM by Azrael.) Quote this message in a reply












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