Post: #871

The Lucky AC  Wrote:

Yes great post SG it is time to let go of everything and just die.
Thank you I am taking your advise, because like everyone I am nothing for no reason and just should let go and be gone.
Thanks for the pointer!

haha I know who you are finally!

If you actually end up doing nothing and dying, then one could say that Ultimately it was God's will that it happened that way, but since there is at least some sense or feeling of choice in the immediate experience, one should behave at least in a way where they try to gain benefit for themselves rather than harm. I don't think the path of inactivity is the way to achieve much benefit.

Post: #872

SecretGeek  Wrote:

Don't believe everlasting fire is real? If not, let us hope you are right and I am wrong, for your sake, not mine. Only SELF can decide.

Here are some quotes about the burning place and gehenna from the Bible:

Isaiah 30:33
For a burning place was ordained since ancient times; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.

Isaiah 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

Isaiah 66:23
From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down (kowtow) before me," says the LORD.

Isaiah 66:24
"And they will go out and look upon the dead men (from the past), those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

In Isaiah, there is depicted the destruction of the entire heavens and earth, and then God created a new heaven and earth, with a burning place that had been known of old awaiting the evil doers, the dead men from the past, where they bodies will eternally burn and decay forever with no end, a state of constant pain for what they had done in life.

"The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible supply the term Gehinnom frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked."

"The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t.Bereshith 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b.Bereshith 28b."

"Gehenna became a metonym for "Hell" or any similar place of punishment in the afterlife."

"The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[10] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[11] from 1986 holds a similar view"

10.^ Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030
11.^ Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189

This "burning place" is called "Gehenna" in the New Testament, and Jesus is said to have spoken about it himself:

Mark 9:42
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

Mark 9:46
In that place, the worm never dies, and the fire is never put out.

Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

Mark 9:48
where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Matthew 5:22
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But I am saying to you, that everyone who will be angry against his brother without cause is condemned before the judge, and everyone who will say to his brother, 'I spit on you', is condemned before the assembly, and whoever will say 'You fool.' is condemned to the Gehenna of fire.

The complete list of references is as follows:

Matt.5:22 whoever calls someone "you fool" will be liable to Gehenna.
Matt.5:29 better to lose one of your members than that your whole body go into Gehenna.
Matt.5:30 better to lose one of your members than that your whole body go into Gehenna.
Matt.10:28 rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Matt.18:9 better to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna.
Matt.23:15 Pharisees make a convert twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves.
Matt.23:33 to Pharisees: you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to Gehenna?
Mark 9:43 better to enter life with one hand than with two hands to go to Gehenna.
Mark 9:45 better to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna.
Mark 9:47 better to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna
Luke 12:5 Fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna
James 3:6 the tongue is set on fire by Gehenna.
________

I hope that information has helped anyone curious about what the Bible says about the burning place and Gehenna!

Post: #873

Psychonaut  Wrote:

SecretGeek  Wrote:

Don't believe everlasting fire is real? If not, let us hope you are right and I am wrong, for your sake, not mine. Only SELF can decide.

When everything else fails...the wanna-be net evangelist threatens eternal hellfire in the name of it's most "merciful" and "loving" construct....

That tactic did work famously well for many centuries on the meek and easily intimidated...and it was sure helped along by people like yourself who saw no issue with bringing that abominable version of "hell on earth" to millions if not billions of others by brutally torturing, maiming and burning alive any who questioned such vile insanities....after all, it was the "will" of that most 'loving' construct, yes?

Spiritual warfare indeed.

Yes, the old techniques still burn bright in the 'loving' hearts of the SELF titled "enlightened" who painfully yearn for others to conform to their sick and twisted version of that 'light' before they are mercifully incinerated for eternity....

You can't fathom the utterly wicked, foul, murderous, bloodthirsty and purely insane disconnect because you have been successfully deluded into willfully given your body mind and soul over to this 'construct', and now you are nothing more than a good little mind-slave who's only thought is to do it's bidding by spreading more fear.

You willfully ignore and rationalize the brutal insanity of such a construct out of pure fear. It has cornered you, trapped you and taken your very mind and soul hostage and left you cowering in a dark and cold corner, convincing you that, if you want to live, you must obey it's every command...or else.

Stockholm Syndrome is a paradoxical psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and love towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them.

Spiritual warfare, indeed.

Please excuse those of us who have been down that same road, confronted the vile construct head on and realized that without fear, it is utterly powerless.

Anything that demands your love through fear cannot be the all loving entity that it wants you to believe it is....

It is my greatest hope that someday you will escape your captor(s) and release yourself from the fears and delusions that this vile construct has attacked you with...

Sorry to interject with my opinion, but as for me...
I don't believe in an omnibenevolent God or "all-loving" God. I think that the world makes it obvious that there is harmful stuff in the world, and not everything is beneficial for us.

The Bible itself does not claim that God is only good or does only good. It says pretty clearly:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

____

Deuteronomy32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

______

The idea presented by the Bible as well as the other religions, is that God is the Ultimate One having all the control and power over everything. It isn't supposed to be a man or a form of a man:

Colossians 1:16
For IN him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

here is one that explains some things:

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Romans 1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither performed worship to him as God nor gave thanks to him, And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Romans 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Romans 1:23
And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 1:24
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Romans 1:25
They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of never-ending praise! Amen.

Romans 1:26
That is why God gave them over to their shameful desires.Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with sexual desire for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Romans 1:29
They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Romans 1:30
slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

Romans 1:31
they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Romans 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

(Those who approve of such things are the ones being called all the names above as well.)

....

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Romans 2:8
But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Romans 2:10
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Romans 2:11
For God does not show favoritism.

________

So anyway, it isn't the opinion of the Bible or the Qur'an or the Vedas that God is a man in the form of a man who only benefits and never harms. The idea is God is the Supreme Ultimate Utmost source of Origin, the Only Power, Sustaining and Animating all realities and information created within itself.

The message to people is that, seek benefit from whatever has all the power, and avoid harm from whatever has all the power. One seeks benefit by thinking and doing good, while one receives harm by doing things that are bad, and the various religions of the world often threatened that people would be judged based on their conduct, and sent either to punishment or reward after they are raised to life again.

The idea is also that a person was dead or not existing for a potentially infinite amount of time prior to their existing, and then here we are, and we will die again and it could be a very long time but just like we didn't exist before, we could exist again, and no matter how much time passed in between, we wouldn't even really be aware of it.

So the fear isn't that we'll die, so much as that we'll wake up again potentially and have to face our conduct.

Post: #874

So basically you're right about facing the truth, that it isn't all-loving at all, clearly.

There is so much pain and harm and suffering in the world. Disease, children dying naturally and leaving the parents heartbroken their whole lives, many horrible accidents, constantly.

The only hope is that one perhaps can gain benefit from whatever has all the power. Not really anything about it being all-good or all-bad. Just that, what else is there one can do?

Post: #875

Not all religious books have the same degree of violence as that which appears in the Bible.

Even if one drops the whole Bible, there is still the reality we live in to deal with.

Post: #876

Notice the second quote below, is only one of the eight items listed in the first quote. The other seven can be studied at the provided reference link. Insight into the formal teachings of __hell:

Quote:This subject is treated under eight headings:

• Name and Place of Hell
• Existence of Hell
• Eternity of Hell
• Impenitence of the Damned
• Poena Damni
• Poena Sensus
• Accidental Pains of the Damned
• Characteristics of the Pains of Hell

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Quote:Name and place of hell

The term hell is cognate to "hole" (cavern) and "hollow". It is a substantive formed from the Anglo-Saxon helan or behelian, "to hide". This verb has the same primitive as the Latin occulere and celare and the Greek kalyptein. Thus by derivation hell denotes a dark and hidden place. In ancient Norse mythology Hel is the ill-favoured goddess of the underworld. Only those who fall in battle can enter Valhalla; the rest go down to Hel in the underworld, not all, however, to the place of punishment of criminals.

Hell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell:

• hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;
• the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment;
• the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam;
• purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven.

The present article treats only of hell in the strict sense of the term.

The Latin infernus (inferum, inferi), the Greek Hades, and the Hebrew sheol correspond to the word hell. Infernus is derived from the root in; hence it designates hell as a place within and below the earth. Haides, formed from the root fid, to see, and a privative, denotes an invisible, hidden, and dark place; thus it is similar to the term hell. The derivation of sheol is doubtful. It is generally supposed to come from the Hebrew root meaning, "to be sunk in, to be hollow"; accordingly it denotes a cave or a place under the earth. In the Old Testament (Septuagint hades; Vulgate infernus) sheol is used quite in general to designate the kingdom of the dead, of the good (Genesis 37:35) as well as of the bad (Numbers 16:30); it means hell in the strict sense of the term, as well as the limbo of the Fathers. But, as the limbo of the Fathers ended at the time of Christ's Ascension, hades (Vulgate infernus) in the New Testament always designates the hell of the damned. Since Christ's Ascension the just no longer go down to the lower world, but they dwell in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:1). However, in the New Testament the term Gehenna is used more frequently in preference to hades, as a name for the place of punishment of the damned. Gehenna is the Hebrew gê-hinnom (Nehemiah 11:30), or the longer form gê-ben-hinnom (Joshua 15:8), and gê-benê-hinnom (2 Kings 23:10) "valley of the sons of Hinnom". Hinnom seems to be the name of a person not otherwise known. The Valley of Hinnom is south of Jerusalem and is now called Wadi er-rababi. It was notorious as the scene, in earlier days, of the horrible worship of Moloch. For this reason it was defiled by Josias (2 Kings 23:10), cursed by Jeremias (Jeremiah 7:31-33), and held in abomination by the Jews, who, accordingly, used the name of this valley to designate the abode of the damned (Targ. Jon., Gen., iii, 24; Henoch, c. xxvi). And Christ adopted this usage of the term. Besides Hades and Gehenna, we find in the New Testament many other names for the abode of the damned. It is called "lower hell" (Vulgate tartarus) (2 Peter 2:4), "abyss" (Luke 8:31 and elsewhere), "place of torments" (Luke 16:28), "pool of fire" (Revelation 19:20 and elsewhere), "furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:42, 50), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12, and elsewhere), "everlasting fire" (Matthew 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7), "exterior darkness" (Matthew 7:12; 22:13; 25:30), "mist" or "storm of darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). The state of the damned is called "destruction" (apoleia, Philippians 3:19 and elsewhere), "perdition" (olethros, 1 Timothy 6:9), "eternal destruction" (olethros aionios, 2 Thessalonians 1:9), "corruption" (phthora, Galatians 6:8), "death" (Romans 6:21), "second death" (Revelation 2:11 and elsewhere).

Where is hell? Some were of opinion that hell is everywhere, that the damned are at liberty to roam about in the entire universe, but that they carry their punishment with them. The adherents of this doctrine were called Ubiquists, or Ubiquitarians; among them were, e.g., Johann Brenz, a Swabian, a Protestant theologian of the sixteenth century. However, that opinion is universally and deservedly rejected; for it is more in keeping with their state of punishment that the damned be limited in their movements and confined to a definite place. Moreover, if hell is a real fire, it cannot be everywhere, especially after the consummation of the world, when heaven and earth shall have been made anew. As to its locality all kinds of conjectures have been made; it has been suggested that hell is situated on some far island of the sea, or at the two poles of the earth; Swinden, an Englishman of the eighteenth century, fancied it was in the sun; some assigned it to the moon, others to Mars; others placed it beyond the confines of the universe [Wiest, "Instit. theol.", VI (1789), 869]. The Bible seems to indicate that hell is within the earth, for it describes hell as an abyss to which the wicked descend. We even read of the earth opening and of the wicked sinking down into hell (Numbers 16:31 sqq.; Psalm 54:16; Isaiah 5:14; Ezekiel 26:20; Philippians 2:10, etc.). Is this merely a metaphor to illustrate the state of separation from God? Although God is omnipresent, He is said to dwell in heaven, because the light and grandeur of the stars and the firmament are the brightest manifestations of His infinite splendour. But the damned are utterly estranged from God; hence their abode is said to be as remote as possible from his dwelling, far from heaven above and its light, and consequently hidden away in the dark abysses of the earth. However, no cogent reason has been advanced for accepting a metaphorical interpretation in preference to the most natural meaning of the words of Scripture. Hence theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth. The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know. St. Chrysostom reminds us: "We must not ask where hell is, but how we are to escape it" (In Rom., hom. xxxi, n. 5, in P.G., LX, 674). St. Augustine says: "It is my opinion that the nature of hell-fire and the location of hell are known to no man unless the Holy Ghost made it known to him by a special revelation", (City of God XX.16). Elsewhere he expresses the opinion that hell is under the earth (Retract., II, xxiv, n. 2 in P.L., XXXII, 640). St. Gregory the Great wrote: "I do not dare to decide this question. Some thought hell is somewhere on earth; others believe it is under the earth" (Dial., IV, xlii, in P.L., LXXVII, 400; cf. Patuzzi, "De sede inferni", 1763; Gretser, "De subterraneis animarum receptaculis", 1595).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Post: #877

FreedomStands  Wrote:

Psychonaut  Wrote:

SecretGeek  Wrote:

Don't believe everlasting fire is real? If not, let us hope you are right and I am wrong, for your sake, not mine. Only SELF can decide.

When everything else fails...the wanna-be net evangelist threatens eternal hellfire in the name of it's most "merciful" and "loving" construct....

That tactic did work famously well for many centuries on the meek and easily intimidated...and it was sure helped along by people like yourself who saw no issue with bringing that abominable version of "hell on earth" to millions if not billions of others by brutally torturing, maiming and burning alive any who questioned such vile insanities....after all, it was the "will" of that most 'loving' construct, yes?

Spiritual warfare indeed.

Yes, the old techniques still burn bright in the 'loving' hearts of the SELF titled "enlightened" who painfully yearn for others to conform to their sick and twisted version of that 'light' before they are mercifully incinerated for eternity....

You can't fathom the utterly wicked, foul, murderous, bloodthirsty and purely insane disconnect because you have been successfully deluded into willfully given your body mind and soul over to this 'construct', and now you are nothing more than a good little mind-slave who's only thought is to do it's bidding by spreading more fear.

You willfully ignore and rationalize the brutal insanity of such a construct out of pure fear. It has cornered you, trapped you and taken your very mind and soul hostage and left you cowering in a dark and cold corner, convincing you that, if you want to live, you must obey it's every command...or else.

Stockholm Syndrome is a paradoxical psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and love towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them.

Spiritual warfare, indeed.

Please excuse those of us who have been down that same road, confronted the vile construct head on and realized that without fear, it is utterly powerless.

Anything that demands your love through fear cannot be the all loving entity that it wants you to believe it is....

It is my greatest hope that someday you will escape your captor(s) and release yourself from the fears and delusions that this vile construct has attacked you with...

Sorry to interject with my opinion, but as for me...
I don't believe in an omnibenevolent God or "all-loving" God. I think that the world makes it obvious that there is harmful stuff in the world, and not everything is beneficial for us.

The Bible itself does not claim that God is only good or does only good. It says pretty clearly:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

____

Deuteronomy32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

______

The idea presented by the Bible as well as the other religions, is that God is the Ultimate One having all the control and power over everything. It isn't supposed to be a man or a form of a man:

Colossians 1:16
For IN him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

here is one that explains some things:

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Romans 1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither performed worship to him as God nor gave thanks to him, And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Romans 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Romans 1:23
And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 1:24
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Romans 1:25
They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of never-ending praise! Amen.

Romans 1:26
That is why God gave them over to their shameful desires.Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with sexual desire for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Romans 1:29
They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Romans 1:30
slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

Romans 1:31
they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Romans 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

(Those who approve of such things are the ones being called all the names above as well.)

....

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Romans 2:8
But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Romans 2:10
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Romans 2:11
For God does not show favoritism.

________

So anyway, it isn't the opinion of the Bible or the Qur'an or the Vedas that God is a man in the form of a man who only benefits and never harms. The idea is God is the Supreme Ultimate Utmost source of Origin, the Only Power, Sustaining and Animating all realities and information created within itself.

The message to people is that, seek benefit from whatever has all the power, and avoid harm from whatever has all the power. One seeks benefit by thinking and doing good, while one receives harm by doing things that are bad, and the various religions of the world often threatened that people would be judged based on their conduct, and sent either to punishment or reward after they are raised to life again.

The idea is also that a person was dead or not existing for a potentially infinite amount of time prior to their existing, and then here we are, and we will die again and it could be a very long time but just like we didn't exist before, we could exist again, and no matter how much time passed in between, we wouldn't even really be aware of it.

So the fear isn't that we'll die, so much as that we'll wake up again potentially and have to face our conduct.

Please allow the net evangelist to speak for himself, unless you are both controlled by the same hive-like mind, that is.

He invoked the common Christian version of hellfire as a threat. They all do when their weak and untenable points are shattered upon the rocks of simple reason.

Just like all net evangelists before him, the ultimate message is conform or be cast out into eternal hellfire. Beastly images (that he posted) are meant to instill fear. Fear is used to force conformity. No different than the old Chick cartoons. It would be laughable if it weren't so sinister in nature.

At any rate, after a lifelong and very intensive study, I do not recognize those scribblings you posted, especially those of the imposter Saul/Paul, as holding any merit other than to prove my exact point that I made above in my prior post.

Thank you for driving the point home.

Post: #878

Psychonaut  Wrote:

Please allow the net evangelist to speak for himself, unless you are both controlled by the same hive-like mind, that is.

He invoked the common Christian version of hellfire as a threat. They all do when their weak and untenable points are shattered upon the rocks of simple reason.

Just like all net evangelists before him, the ultimate message is conform or be cast out into eternal hellfire. Beastly images (that he posted) are meant to instill fear. Fear is used to force conformity. No different that the old Chick cartoons. It would be laughable if it weren't so sinister in nature.

At any rate, after a lifelong and very intensive study, I do not recognize those scribblings you posted, especially those of the imposter Saul/Paul, as holding any merit other than to prove my exact point that I made above in my prior post.

Thank you for driving the point home.

Yes, that is what I like to do! Drive the point home! Thanks for not getting angry at me for posting that.

I just wanted to share that basically the people who believe in an "omnibenevolent" or "all-beneficial" or "all-loving" God are not supported by the Biblical text or the text of pretty much any other religion because the idea would require a kind of dualism and would also not make much sense in the face of the harsh reality that exists every day in the world.

I've read and picked up Chick tracts haha, some are really funny.

I don't like that they try to pressure people sometimes into doing what other religions would consider blasphemy with the threat of hell if one doesn't believe something that is considered wrong by other religions which is this specific point about Jesus being the son of God, God, or a co-creator with God.

So yeah, I was just trying to share what the Bible says for anyone who imagines an all-loving God or whatever, they would have to face the Bible itself to try to push beyond it for that idea, because the Bible talks about a God having all power and control, but not one that does no harm or loves everyone unconditionally.

Post: #879

Luke 16:31
"Abraham said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

I put that there because I was reading about the "place of torment" mentioned in a post above.

Luke 16:20-
At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores

and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades/Sheol, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,

for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

"'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.

It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

Post: #880

So according to the system described in the Bible, not only is there an everlasting fire later on after judgment day, but there is a fire in "sheol" or "hades" as well for those who didn't do good, while the people wait for judgment day.

Post: #881

Quote: Anything that demands your love through fear cannot be the all loving entity that it wants you to believe it is

Demand is not quite the right word, for an all-powerful being to demand is to have it happen. There would be no choice in the matter, because you would not have been given the mentation to think any contrary thoughts -- a perfect robot.
Require is closer to the meaning...without the compulsion or imposition.
The outcome is the same, the avenue is completely different.
I can demand that you stop breathing, and your breath stops...or I can require that you need oxygen in which to breath. In the first, there is no choice involved; in the second, you can remove yourself away from oxygen at your own peril.

But love is incompatible with 'demand' in any case.
Unless it's a gift you need or want to give to another, then it's not love, it's something else.


Love towards God may be out of gratitude for the gift of Being or existence or Life or sentience, but there's no forcing or demanding that, no more than you can tell a bad joke and demand or expect laughter...it either is evoked or not.

And 'love through fear' is almost a contradiction in terms. I can see respect through fear, or obedience through fear, or even subserviance...but self-sacrificial giving of yourself to another is not going to happen if you have no self to give. And the 'fear' can only come from a feeling that you will be eliminated....that tends to damp down any tender emotions.


And as for 'all-loving'...that's not so. If that were true, then God would be a servant of Love, subservient to Love, and Love would rule God.
He would then have to defer to Love...Love would always have right-of-way, and take away God's volition. He would have to love even evil...and rebellion would have no checks and balances.
Love is only one of His attributes, and if unbalanced without other attributes like Justice, would be a monolinear concept, and not a Being...impossible to relate to...a cosmic candystore that winks at evil, and just doles out whatever a creature desires.
If Love isn't tempered with Wisdom, it becomes not only destructive in the long run, but a indiscriminate monster.

It doesn't want you to believe it's 'all-loving'...loving, yes...but like a Father, measures love with discipline and really hard stuff.
A cosmic candystore does nothing for formation of a backbone, fortitude, or even to give you a knowledge of yourself...do you know what you're made of? Without testing, you'll never know.

Fear is the beginning of Wisdom, because of without a perspective of just how small a creature is compared to the Creator, you'll never get anything right...not about yourself, not about the cosmos, and certainly not about God.
If an ant were to really apprehend the enormity of a human compared to itself, it would always shake in its boots whenever around one.
It's that magnitude of largeness that evokes awe and trepidation, just like our ancestors facing an erupting volcano, or watching planets colliding in the sky...

But that fear is only the initial doorway into the discovery of God...left behind as fear, retained as awe; given the proper focus towards the Sustainer of All. Without that view, you would never grasp the enormity of what it means for Him to become one of us...

And whatever 'it wants you to believe', you will irresistibly believe.
Perhaps, and more than likely, not in this life...but definitely and irretrievably in the next.

What 'it' would like you to believe, has already been plastered all over the planet...He's the Maker, you're the Made...as such, He owns you lock, stock, and barrel...just as anything you'd make with your own hands in your shop, to do with as you wish.
Without the fear of the Lord, you'd resent that, or wiggle away from it, or work against it.

Sorry guys, you ain't god and made yourself and the planet you stand on...and until you can, it's not your rules, not your understandings, and not yours to call what the end result will be.

Post: #882

Quote: Could you write more specifically about the following from above?
Quote:When to apprehend a thing is to become that thing, what preserves separateness to contain an individual Will, and not be subsumed?

Presuming there is no ignorance once the limitations of a linear physical world is left behind, and 'sight' will be independent of either the light of a physical sun, or physical eye limitations, then to 'see' in that environment is to 'know' the object of perception inside and out, independent of duration or scale...from its total development and evolution to the finest smallest process and elements.
To know something that intimately, so that there is nothing hidden or unrevealed, is to have a 'picture' in your mind indistinguishable with the thing itself. To know, is to identify with it...you know it so well, you are it.
With that level of Oneness, what keeps all that you incorporate as knowing from overwhelming the little bit that you are?

The mechanics of which I've not delved into as yet.

I wrote a little on this some while ago:

Quote:nolomolistari
2/17/2009
2:06 pm
We'll never see this way again.


Enjoy it while you can.

I stand in the woods, absorbing the pattern of white on white, looking at birch trees in the snow.

The view seemed so permanent, so solid. All I saw was all there was.
And because of that, the beauty was like a snap-shot, a painting frozen in time, containing all that there was. I could take it all in, make it a part of myself, and yet stand apart from it to see it how it wanted to present itself to me.

There'll come a time when I won't have the handy veil of three dimensionality and linearity.

And I'll see the forest as a dynamic process. I'll see the tree as part of a continuity, from seed to seedling, growing tree to aged rotting tree, and back to soil.
It'll have a beauty of its own, like watching a fractal pattern waxing and waning. But it will never be the static window of a single pane of stillness and simplicity; isolated and stark. It will never be lonely and poignant.

I will never have the option of never not seeing, there will never be darkness or obscurity, or be hidden or unrevealed, or take on mystery or fantasy.
Instead, I'll be immersed in the interconnectedness of all Reality, and focus will be a grasping of movement that never stops dancing. That forest will be a fraction of the wholeness that is the tapestry of life and reality. I'll find myself connected and part of that forest, and impossible to stand back and be separate from it, to be even a little bit unaware of any part of it.


Such a small part of the whole, swallowed up in the grand parade of the universe.

I feel sad in a way. Like realizing that someday, contemplating that forest will be like examining a neglected cell in my own hand that I hardly, if ever, recognize today.
I may revisit it, but in the swirl of all the other things there will be to see; would its impact ever be as it is now?

Never as I see it now, almost sovereign and majestic in its isolation.

We have this time to see as we see, never again repeated. As our eyes become opened, there will never be the opportunities to learn as we can uniquely learn now; to imprint the individuality that lays upon everything in our minds; before they all become the sea of creation, the blend and dance of connectivity.

I would never choose to see as the mystics or yogi see, rushing ahead to the time when we will all be in a mode of knowing, all illuminated, all revealed.
There will be time enough for that -- all of eternity.
But it's now that we have the only unique time in eternity and the universe when we can see as we see -- step by step and part by part.

As blind as that may be, it still gives our minds and spirits the building blocks to construct an individuality that will endure rather than subsume when the time comes that we become directly hooked into absolute Reality. To be able to be a part of something without becoming that thing. To not be swamped with the vision of All that Is, and retain our uniqueness. When the time comes that to see something is to become one with that something...and the ability to even see things as separate 'somethings' has passed...what will keep us as ourselves?

Perhaps it's built of these snapshots, these isolated building-blocks of stand-alone beauty; seen through our eyes now, like no one else's eyes; that provides the memories to keep us grounded in our own personhood. Even when we are all One.

So I go out in the forest, and even though I long for my time to be done here; I still appreciate the Gift that will build us into what we shall be -- no matter how painful, limited, and blind it may appear now -- and drink in what I see.

Post: #883

Nolo  Wrote:

Quote: Anything that demands your love through fear cannot be the all loving entity that it wants you to believe it is

Demand is not quite the right word, for an all-powerful being to demand is to have it happen. There would be no choice in the matter, because you would not have been given the mentation to think any contrary thoughts -- a perfect robot.
Require is closer to the meaning...without the compulsion or imposition.
The outcome is the same, the avenue is completely different.
I can demand that you stop breathing, and your breath stops...or I can require that you need oxygen in which to breath. In the first, there is no choice involved; in the second, you can remove yourself away from oxygen at your own peril.

But love is incompatible with 'demand' in any case.
Unless it's a gift you need or want to give to another, then it's not love, it's something else.


Love towards God may be out of gratitude for the gift of Being or existence or Life or sentience, but there's no forcing or demanding that, no more than you can tell a bad joke and demand or expect laughter...it either is evoked or not.

And 'love through fear' is almost a contradiction in terms. I can see respect through fear, or obedience through fear, or even subserviance...but self-sacrificial giving of yourself to another is not going to happen if you have no self to give. And the 'fear' can only come from a feeling that you will be eliminated....that tends to damp down any tender emotions.


And as for 'all-loving'...that's not so. If that were true, then God would be a servant of Love, subservient to Love, and Love would rule God.
He would then have to defer to Love...Love would always have right-of-way, and take away God's volition. He would have to love even evil...and rebellion would have no checks and balances.
Love is only one of His attributes, and if unbalanced without other attributes like Justice, would be a monolinear concept, and not a Being...impossible to relate to...a cosmic candystore that winks at evil, and just doles out whatever a creature desires.
If Love isn't tempered with Wisdom, it becomes not only destructive in the long run, but a indiscriminate monster.

It doesn't want you to believe it's 'all-loving'...loving, yes...but like a Father, measures love with discipline and really hard stuff.
A cosmic candystore does nothing for formation of a backbone, fortitude, or even to give you a knowledge of yourself...do you know what you're made of? Without testing, you'll never know.

Fear is the beginning of Wisdom, because of without a perspective of just how small a creature is compared to the Creator, you'll never get anything right...not about yourself, not about the cosmos, and certainly not about God.
If an ant were to really apprehend the enormity of a human compared to itself, it would always shake in its boots whenever around one.
It's that magnitude of largeness that evokes awe and trepidation, just like our ancestors facing an erupting volcano, or watching planets colliding in the sky...

But that fear is only the initial doorway into the discovery of God...left behind as fear, retained as awe; given the proper focus towards the Sustainer of All. Without that view, you would never grasp the enormity of what it means for Him to become one of us...

And whatever 'it wants you to believe', you will irresistibly believe.
Perhaps, and more than likely, not in this life...but definitely and irretrievably in the next.

What 'it' would like you to believe, has already been plastered all over the planet...He's the Maker, you're the Made...as such, He owns you lock, stock, and barrel...just as anything you'd make with your own hands in your shop, to do with as you wish.
Without the fear of the Lord, you'd resent that, or wiggle away from it, or work against it.

Sorry guys, you ain't god and made yourself and the planet you stand on...and until you can, it's not your rules, not your understandings, and not yours to call what the end result will be.

I appreciate that you can see the ridiculous contradiction that arises when one is pressured to love through fear....

And my point on Stockholm Syndrome might be right on point even still...There have been many examples of hostages expressing real (to them) love for their captors, even after they were freed.

Requiring obedience and love at the threat of eternal hellfire is no different than demanding it, by any sane measure.

I cannot think of even one example of a worthy father (animal or human) who would require the mindless adoration and strict compliance to it's impossible 'rules' from it's creation (or offspring) and then actually follow through with anything remotely close to eternal punishment.

No matter how rosy the rationalizations are painted, it's still absolutely absurd to a free and independent mind.

Your example of imagining that we are 'owned stock lock and barrel and it is free to treat us as it wishes' is precisely the attitude of those who gruesomely tortured and murdered millions of innocent humans over the years....all in the name of that particular construct, mind you, something that all Abrahamic adherents seem to have in common even to this day.

You might be surprised to know that I have little doubt that this creature does indeed exist, for it's "work" is plainly evident wherever it is worshiped.....and I am personally convinced that it is almost the diametric opposite of what most "belivers" think it is...

"By it's fruit it will be known" Yes?

At any rate, I appreciate you taking the time to comment and I will think on them further....I do express my gratitude each and every day for the opportunity to scratch out an existence on this rock.... and I very much enjoy reading those who can put things into their own words, rather than leaning on the "copy/paste" function to try to make their points...

Post: #884

excuse me for butting in


but what really is the point of this thread and purpose?

what is the desired end result?

man will always be flawed (and that includes women for the pc types)

to me death is the end result

because we won't know shit until we die.


and that will be true spiritual warfare when the lights are dimming

which way will your heart and soul go? will you fight it?

are there go-go dancers in hell?

Post: #885

A lot of death cults believe that when we die the separation of selves will be ended and unification will result.
They encourage their members to.........well you get the idea.

Genuine spiritual warfare, is to be attacked by negative [or non-aligned to yourself] energy beings. [A person incredibly close to me had threats made against her children as she worked just yesterday, she knew better and just laughed it off.]

They only have what power over you that you give them.

Why these things exist is highly debatable.

Surrendering yourself to them is to be lost until you take the power back.

Many people do "deals" with them are are able to command them to attack others. That is warfare.

We are in a constant battle for our minds and beliefs on every level. This continues until mastery has been obtained.

Only you can master yourself. No-one else has that power.