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**The Lucky AC** Everything in life is luck User ID: 888 02-22-2012 09:24 PM

Proof in anything is whether you believe it or not.

Many theories of science were "hard facts" until later disproved, but people had believed them until that moment.

We know there is a phenomenon called gravity but we have yet to find who it works exactly.

Electricity has never been quantified, we use it and give it values of charge but it has never been identified as what it is exactly, even though the universe is comprised of electromagnetic fields.

Belief is as proof for many of us.

The actual truth? Perhaps it is not rational and cannot be comprehended by rational thinking.
We need to stop limiting our thoughts.

**FreedomStands**

Jay7777777 Wrote:

FreedomStands Wrote:
Jay7777777 Wrote:
I dont want to make this thread a bible discussion, however I dont believe that scripture in Jeremiah means what you claim.

It just points to some scribes at the time being accused of writing falsehood into the Biblical commandments and laws. Maybe these false laws were taken out, but I doubt it, seeing that the Old Testament laws are pretty bad sometimes.

Like I said I dont wish to turn this into a bible thread, we can start a new one if you like.

I have no doubt in my mind that many people down the centurys have tried to mess with the scriptures, (including some so called main stream religions)

Many people were burned at the stake by the catholic church for even trying to translate the bible into the common folks language.

The whys and wherefores are of no interest to me.

If you believe that GOD and its a big if, wanted to write a book such as the bible then we must believe that he has the power to see this through and thwart all the enemies that stand in his way (such as the catholic priests etc) and actuall present to us in essence the message he wanted to.

Looking at it objectively you would expect his message to mankind to be readily available and in all languages.

Yeah, I absolutely agree, but I also think of God wanted to corrupt the book, God would've corrupted it (you can come to my thread to discuss more on this):

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats."

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Romans 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Kings 22:20 -
And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that.

Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'

"'By what means?' the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Ezekiel 14:9
"'And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel.

_____

So yes, if the Bible was corrupted, as it Jeremiah mentions with the scribes corrupting it, and through generations of writers and scribes, then it was ultimately by the will of God, perhaps so that a new revelation could come and divide those who truly believe from those who follow falsehoods blindly and things.

**Jay7777777**

LoP Guest Wrote:

do you really think there was a single book when Jesus was alive that was later called the 'Old Testament' ??

seriously....

I dont think anyone believes that buddy, but for the purpose of this discussion if we refer to the collection of books as the old testament then we all know what we are referring to.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 67922 02-22-2012 09:26 PM

Jay7777777 Wrote:

he quoted from it 84 times, thats how many times we know about.
It seems he regularly discussed scripture with his apostles.

NO HE DID NOT

'it' did not exist while Jesus was alive

Jesus did NOT use one single book as your corrupt english tongue implies

Jesus used BOOKS - many different BOOKS

he regularly discussed scriptures from different books with his apostles

**LOPastor** · (This post was last modified: 02-22-2012 09:28 PM by LOPastor.)

LoP Guest Wrote:

FreedomStands Wrote:
LOPastor Wrote:
False. Jesus did preach and quote the Old Testament on numerous occasions.

True!

NO HE DID NOT

he referenced BOOKS, many different BOOKS; these books were later combined into the 'Old Testament'

Ok, not to further belabor the case but to explain myself a little better. The orginal argument a few posts back was "Jesus never preached with a book". We were attempting to prove that assumption wrong. Yes, it wasn't called the old testament back then. Rather the Book Of Prophets, The Torah, and a few others. But like i said, the orginal argument was he didn't preach out of books EVER. Yes he did.

**FreedomStands**

LoP Guest Wrote:

FreedomStands Wrote:
LOPastor Wrote:
False. Jesus did preach and quote the Old Testament on numerous occasions.

True!

NO HE DID NOT

he referenced BOOKS, many different BOOKS; these books were later combined into the 'Old Testament'

At the time of Jesus, the "Torah" or Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible...existed, and there are records of this. You can go look it up. Yeah, it wasn't called the "old testament" then because the "new testament" hadn't come out yet, but the Jewish people at the time had written it down and had written it down up until its current form as the Hebrew Bible. You can look up the history related to that, it wasn't all oral or anything or spread out at the time of Jesus, it had already been put into the form of Torah scrolls that contained the Tanakh.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 67922 02-22-2012 09:29 PM

Jay7777777 Wrote:

LoP Guest Wrote:
do you really think there was a single book when Jesus was alive that was later called the 'Old Testament' ??

seriously....

I dont think anyone believes that buddy, but for the purpose of this discussion if we refer to the collection of books as the old testament then we all know what we are referring to.

we are speaking of EXACTLY what Jesus did, and he used MANY different BOOKS

YOU are implying that there is only one book, which is a blatant lie

remeber - In the Beginning was the word SPOKEN WORD, not written

**FreedomStands**

LoP Guest Wrote:

Jay7777777 Wrote:
he quoted from it 84 times, thats how many times we know about.
It seems he regularly discussed scripture with his apostles.

NO HE DID NOT

'it' did not exist while Jesus was alive

Jesus did NOT use one single book as your corrupt english tongue implies

Jesus used BOOKS - many different BOOKS

he regularly discussed scriptures from different books with his apostles

Oh, ok, the "books" collected in "Torah scrolls" and known by the Jewish people at the time and read by the Rabbis at the time.

**FreedomStands**

LoP Guest Wrote:

Jay7777777 Wrote:
LoP Guest Wrote:
do you really think there was a single book when Jesus was alive that was later called the 'Old Testament' ??

seriously....

I dont think anyone believes that buddy, but for the purpose of this discussion if we refer to the collection of books as the old testament then we all know what we are referring to.

we are speaking of EXACTLY what Jesus did, and he used MANY different BOOKS

YOU are implying that there is only one book, which is a blatant lie

remeber - In the Beginning was the word SPOKEN WORD, not written

I don't know why you are using so many bolded and capitalized words.

What is your point? The Torah wasn't only oral at the time Jesus was said to have lived.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 67922 02-22-2012 09:32 PM

FreedomStands Wrote:

At the time of Jesus, the "Torah" or Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible...existed, and there are records of this.

the Jews as a whole have NEVER been restricted to one single book, ever

Jesus used BOOKS

**aman**

death.

is there one thing here, from the atom to man, that lives forever? no, all elements decay, EVERYTHING dies.

but when i look at the heavens i can see that they do not change and the ancient things bear witness to that fact. though the pyramids are very old they are "dying" in that they are slowly crumbling and becoming nothing, as all things here do.

but not up there for those very ancient structures tell us that they looked at the very same stars and heavenly bodies we look at. after all this time their light still shines.

this is the greatest witness for god that i can come up with.

death.

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 67922 02-22-2012 09:34 PM

FreedomStands Wrote:

LoP Guest Wrote:
Jay7777777 Wrote:
I dont think anyone believes that buddy, but for the purpose of this discussion if we refer to the collection of books as the old testament then we all know what we are referring to.

we are speaking of EXACTLY what Jesus did, and he used MANY different BOOKS

YOU are implying that there is only one book, which is a blatant lie

remeber - In the Beginning was the word SPOKEN WORD, not written

I don't know why you are using so many bolded and capitalized words.

What is your point? The Torah wasn't only oral at the time Jesus was said to have lived.

point ??

i am making points....

Like Genesis 1:1

In the Beginning God created two

God is all things, except one

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 67922 02-22-2012 09:35 PM

aman Wrote:

death.

is there one thing here, from the atom to man, that lives forever? no, all elements decay, EVERYTHING dies.

but when i look at the heavens i can see that they do not change and the ancient things bear witness to that fact. though the pyramids are very old they are "dying" in that they are slowly crumbling and becoming nothing, as all things here do.

but not up there for those very ancient structures tell us that they looked at the very same stars and heavenly bodies we look at. after all this time their light still shines.

this is the greatest witness for god that i can come up with.

death.

yes, yes indeed....

**The Lucky AC** Everything in life is luck User ID: 888 02-22-2012 09:38 PM

604 BCE ?
Laozi, a philosopher who wrote a small book called "The Way", 167 (Footnote) was an IS?BE of great
wisdom, who overcame the effects of the "Old Empire" amnesia/hypnosis machinery and escaped from
Earth. His understanding of the nature of an IS?BE must have been very good to accomplish this.
According to the common legend, his last lifetime as a human was lived in a small village in China. He
contemplated the essence of his own life. Like Gautama Siddhartha, he confronted his own thoughts,
and past lives. In so doing, he recovered some of his own memory, ability and immortality.
As an old man, he decided to leave the village and go to the forest to depart the body. The village
gatekeeper stopped him and begged him to write down his personal philosophy before leaving.
Here is a small piece of advice he gave about "the way" he rediscovered his own spirit:
"He who looks will not see it;
He who listens will not hear it;
He who gropes will not grasp it.
The formless nonentity,
the motionless source of motion.
The infinite essence of the spirit is the source of life.
Spirit is self.
Walls form and support a room,
yet the space between them is most important.
A pot is formed of clay,
yet the space formed therein is most useful.
Action is caused by the force of nothing on something,
just as the nothing of spirit is the source of all form.
One suffers great afflictions because one has a body.
Without a body what afflictions could one suffer?
When one cares more for the body than for his own spirit,
One becomes the body and looses the way of the spirit.
The self, the spirit, creates illusion.
The delusion of Man is that reality is not an illusion.
One who creates illusions and makes them more real than reality,
follows the path of the spirit and finds the way of heaven".5,965 BCE —

The body might die. What of that which is you? Many people ave no concept of what they actually are.
What you are is not physical and is not subject to the rules of "reality"
Anybody can choose to wake up when they want and stop being a prisoner.
The choice is yours

**LoP Guest** lop guest User ID: 67922 02-22-2012 09:48 PM

The Lucky AC Wrote:

The choice is yours

the choices....the choices

anyways -- as it takes two to create a life on earth, it takes two to create a life in heaven