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Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 430444
04-15-2019 10:07 AM

 



Post: #16
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
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there is the risk scenario that the Russian Little Green Men would crawl thru the Nordstream pipes into Germany and make the Germans to vote to join the Russian Federation ...
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 496878
04-15-2019 10:16 AM

 



Post: #17
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
More like Nord stream 2 is a knife held to the throat of Germany to make sure it doesn't oppose Russia. To paraphrase the great orange leader, "such a bad idea, the worst, so sad".
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General Anonymous
lop guest
User ID: 430444
04-15-2019 10:18 AM

 



Post: #18
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:06 AM)
We help you out in the war on terror.
For like 18 years already.

We cannot help it that you don't want to finish these wars in a decisive win.
You wanna drag them on till eternity, and throw your money at your own defense industry.

When we can see the benefit for ourselves, we might pay more for it.
But we don't exist to give welfare to your defense industry.

Well, aren't refugee waves caused by the Endless War on Terror a benefit?

USA is about to lose a war that cost trillions, against a couple of thousand medieval goat herders in Afghanistan, isn't that great!

Therefore, USA has produced a new military doctrine ... the threat from the unbeatable towel head sand naggers is gradually set aside, the new threat is the "revisionist powers" China and Russia,a new cold war is achieved... it needs even more money!
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 442059
04-15-2019 10:21 AM

 



Post: #19
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:16 AM)
More like Nord stream 2 is a knife held to the throat of Germany to make sure it doesn't oppose Russia. To paraphrase the great orange leader, "such a bad idea, the worst, so sad".

A knife like Russia is gonna demand more payments (like 2% more?) or like a knife that demands Germany to join a Russian war on terror, or like a knife that put restrictions of German cars? Or like a knife that says we cannot get gas from another source then Russia?

Seems that knife is now in the hands of someone else....
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 496878
04-15-2019 10:25 AM

 



Post: #20
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:21 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:16 AM)
More like Nord stream 2 is a knife held to the throat of Germany to make sure it doesn't oppose Russia. To paraphrase the great orange leader, "such a bad idea, the worst, so sad".

A knife like Russia is gonna demand more payments (like 2% more?) or like a knife that demands Germany to join a Russian war on terror, or like a knife that put restrictions of German cars? Or like a knife that says we cannot get gas from another source then Russia?

Seems that knife is now in the hands of someone else....

No a knife like "If Germany joins in international sanctions against Russia's latest invasion of sovereign territory then your people will freeze to death in darkness this winter", that sort of knife.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 430444
04-15-2019 10:26 AM

 



Post: #21
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:16 AM)
More like Nord stream 2 is a knife held to the throat of Germany to make sure it doesn't oppose Russia. To paraphrase the great orange leader, "such a bad idea, the worst, so sad".

Europe has bought the Russian gas since the Cold War times ,and even then it never stopped coming as far as I recall, and I don't recall any threats presented during those times that were more hostile.




It's peculiar, one of the basic reasons behind the Eu was that economic integration and interdependence might prevent the wars that used to ravage Europe every now and then ... and it seems to have worked ... but somehow that logic doesn't apply to Russia, why is that?
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General Anonymous
lop guest
User ID: 430444
04-15-2019 10:30 AM

 



Post: #22
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:25 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:21 AM)
A knife like Russia is gonna demand more payments (like 2% more?) or like a knife that demands Germany to join a Russian war on terror, or like a knife that put restrictions of German cars? Or like a knife that says we cannot get gas from another source then Russia?

Seems that knife is now in the hands of someone else....

No a knife like "If Germany joins in international sanctions against Russia's latest invasion of sovereign territory then your people will freeze to death in darkness this winter", that sort of knife.

Germany joined the sanctions and the Russian gas just kept coming. Why? because that would have been loss-loss.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 442059
04-15-2019 10:32 AM

 



Post: #23
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:25 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:21 AM)
A knife like Russia is gonna demand more payments (like 2% more?) or like a knife that demands Germany to join a Russian war on terror, or like a knife that put restrictions of German cars? Or like a knife that says we cannot get gas from another source then Russia?

Seems that knife is now in the hands of someone else....

No a knife like "If Germany joins in international sanctions against Russia's latest invasion of sovereign territory then your people will freeze to death in darkness this winter", that sort of knife.

The risk of Russia invading foreign countries is a lot smaller then the risk of the US doing that.
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General Anonymous
lop guest
User ID: 430444
04-15-2019 10:32 AM

 



Post: #24
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
loss-loss = no gas for you, no money for us.


Germany as a major importer of Russian gas kind of holds a knife on Russia's throat, if they threaten to stop buying ...
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 496878
04-15-2019 10:43 AM

 



Post: #25
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:26 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:16 AM)
More like Nord stream 2 is a knife held to the throat of Germany to make sure it doesn't oppose Russia. To paraphrase the great orange leader, "such a bad idea, the worst, so sad".

Europe has bought the Russian gas since the Cold War times ,and even then it never stopped coming as far as I recall, and I don't recall any threats presented during those times that were more hostile.
Well Ukraine had a very different experiance of Russia using its gas supplies, pricing and restrictions as a weapon.

Quote:It's peculiar, one of the basic reasons behind the Eu was that economic integration and interdependence might prevent the wars that used to ravage Europe every now and then ... and it seems to have worked ... but somehow that logic doesn't apply to Russia, why is that?
Well the European coal and steel community was set up partly to make sure Germany could never use the industrial base of the Rhur valley to re-arm itself again. The EU was actually concieved as a bulwark against Russia by uniting European states.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201...rs-discov/
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 496878
04-15-2019 10:49 AM

 



Post: #26
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
General Anonymous  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:30 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:25 AM)
No a knife like "If Germany joins in international sanctions against Russia's latest invasion of sovereign territory then your people will freeze to death in darkness this winter", that sort of knife.

Germany joined the sanctions and the Russian gas just kept coming. Why? because that would have been loss-loss.

Germany is not energy dependant on Russia yet. It is still consuming huge quantities of domestically produced coal, lignite and some nuclear power but it wants to diversify away from all those sources and one way to do that is to import more Russian gas. The more Germany depends on Russian gas the greater the leverage Russia has.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 430444
04-15-2019 10:57 AM

 



Post: #27
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:43 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:26 AM)
Europe has bought the Russian gas since the Cold War times ,and even then it never stopped coming as far as I recall, and I don't recall any threats presented during those times that were more hostile.
Well Ukraine had a very different experiance of Russia using its gas supplies, pricing and restrictions as a weapon.

Quote:It's peculiar, one of the basic reasons behind the Eu was that economic integration and interdependence might prevent the wars that used to ravage Europe every now and then ... and it seems to have worked ... but somehow that logic doesn't apply to Russia, why is that?
Well the European coal and steel community was set up partly to make sure Germany could never use the industrial base of the Rhur valley to re-arm itself again. The EU was actually concieved as a bulwark against Russia by uniting European states.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201...rs-discov/

Not against Russia, but against communism, including the Soviet Union.

There is a communist party in Russia even today , but it is an opposition party.

But the Soviet communism as a threat is gone.



Free movement of labour, capital and the goods and services, or the free market economy against communism. Communism was perceived as an internal threat not just external, because Communist parties had increased their popularity in Europe after the war, in France, in Italy in Greece.

My understanding is that the Russian experience with the Ukraine as a gas buyer is that they are skimmers and scammers, taking gas designed to transit to Europe without paying.

If Ukrainians won't pay and the Russia wont deliver, then Europe needs to provide the Russian gas to Ukraine. So it seems kind of stupid.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 496878
04-15-2019 11:05 AM

 



Post: #28
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
General Anonymous  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:32 AM)
loss-loss = no gas for you, no money for us.


Germany as a major importer of Russian gas kind of holds a knife on Russia's throat, if they threaten to stop buying ...

Well here is how it could work. In 2035 Germany has no nuclear power plants and is preparing to shut its last coal power stations to reach its 2040 deadline. It has lots of renewable power capacity but depends on the weather for that. Russia is unhappy about some political move Germany has made and announces it will temporarily shut down NS 1 and NS2 in January and February, taking a serious but non-fatal financial hit. Germany is plunged into chaos and darkness. Industry grinds to a halt and people start freezing and starving in the dark. How long could Germany hold out vs how long could Russia hold out? Germany could never really risk NS1 & 2 shutting whearas Russia could ride out a short term loss of revenue, it has easily survived the long term sanctions over Crimea. This is the risky situation Germany is looking to put itself in, to be at the mercy of Russia's energy policy.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 442059
04-15-2019 11:23 AM

 



Post: #29
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 11:05 AM)
General Anonymous  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:32 AM)
loss-loss = no gas for you, no money for us.


Germany as a major importer of Russian gas kind of holds a knife on Russia's throat, if they threaten to stop buying ...

Well here is how it could work. In 2035 Germany has no nuclear power plants and is preparing to shut its last coal power stations to reach its 2040 deadline. It has lots of renewable power capacity but depends on the weather for that. Russia is unhappy about some political move Germany has made and announces it will temporarily shut down NS 1 and NS2 in January and February, taking a serious but non-fatal financial hit. Germany is plunged into chaos and darkness. Industry grinds to a halt and people start freezing and starving in the dark. How long could Germany hold out vs how long could Russia hold out? Germany could never really risk NS1 & 2 shutting whearas Russia could ride out a short term loss of revenue, it has easily survived the long term sanctions over Crimea. This is the risky situation Germany is looking to put itself in, to be at the mercy of Russia's energy policy.

If we right now can handle Venezuela and Iran and Libya going offline, all major EU energy suppliers, then we can handle Russia too.
But if it turns out Russia is so unreliable, I'm sure we will make sure we are not critically dependent on NS.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 496878
04-15-2019 11:37 AM

 



Post: #30
RE: Germany makes more excuses about not ponying up to 2% of GDP for NATO
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:57 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (04-15-2019 10:43 AM)
Well Ukraine had a very different experiance of Russia using its gas supplies, pricing and restrictions as a weapon.

Well the European coal and steel community was set up partly to make sure Germany could never use the industrial base of the Rhur valley to re-arm itself again. The EU was actually concieved as a bulwark against Russia by uniting European states.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201...rs-discov/

Not against Russia, but against communism, including the Soviet Union.

There is a communist party in Russia even today , but it is an opposition party.

But the Soviet communism as a threat is gone.

Notionally against communism and yet here we are nearly 30 years later and Russia has 5,000 nuclear warheads aimed against the west and is developing new weapons. Regular practice bombing runs against Europe have been restarted by Putin and the Baltic states feel they are at increasing risk of Russian military action. Ukraine is part occupied and Russia is sustaining a proxy war in its eastern provinces. Nothing has really changed except the notional political philosophy. Russia has switched from belligerent authoritarian "communism" to belligerent authoritarian ultra-nationalism, plus ca change.

This young man presents a good analysis of hundreds of years of strategic Russian thinking and how it shapes the nationalist thinking of Putin.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_09mazZs8
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