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Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Fire of Prometheus
Registered User
User ID: 423816
09-10-2019 12:26 PM

Posts: 560



Post: #46
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
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First off this is the best thread I have seen in a long time!
Where to start...
Yes the earth is a conductor, the old telegraph system that killed people when it got hit by the Carrington Event used the earth as the "common ground".
A flat plane(or sphere) does not behave as a wire when subjected to an E.M. force, instead of producing a usable current a flat surface dissipates the energy in eddy currents as heat.
The wire that was used by the telegraph acted as an antenna and absorbed the EM energy to produce a high potential.
Since the EM was burned off on the ground side, but the wire gained potential the difference between the earth ground and the wire eventually became so high, the potential overwhelmed the isolation or insulation.
Batteries exploded, the telegraphs started going on their own, there were fires and people getting shocked.

Static electricity generated by moving windmills is something interesting to consider. Static electricity present in the earth if powerful enough will cause the hair on your head to stand up.
This can happen when lightning is about to strike.
The only way a charge can develop is if there is no ground path, but if there is no ground path the discharges will only happen when the potential is high enough to overcome the insulator(air,plastic,glass..).
In other words, if there is some connection to ground there would be no build up of static charge, and if there is no easy path to ground the charge would build until it went off like a lightning strike.

The type of ground loop the OP was referencing is typical of a faulty ground in a circuit.
These trip breakers when say you have a ground fault on a pool filter pump.
They cause noise, and in worst case damage in poorly designed or damaged electronics.
It can really cause trouble when you have multiple electronic devices connected to different power sources, and they start trying to back feed through a ground from one to the other.

All of that being said you don't have to worry about static ground loops, you don't have to worry about D.C. ground loops, because no one is crazy enough to try to run a D.C. line even a 1/4 mile.
That leaves a A.C. ground loop, or ground fault.
There are so many pieces of gear to detect and prevent those situations if it happened the power company would notice and fix it.

If you want to touch on a little woo, there are some inconsistencies with the theory of the earths magnetic field.
The standard theory is that molten metal in the core spinning is generating the magnetic field.
The problem is all known metals become paramagnetic and poor conductors at high temperature.
So what if currents are being generated by the difference surface energy from the sun as the earth rotates?
There would be paths of least resistance that the current would always travel.
These paths carrying voltage would generate a magnetic field.
Perhaps these paths are part of the origin of what became known as ley lines.
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Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 07:25 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #47
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Pasta Lover  Wrote: (09-10-2019 04:15 AM)
Why do you suspect there may be some currents in the ground system. What are you defining ground currents as?

When that wind farm went online a long time ago my father got sick and was bedridden for a year.

If the wind farm was the cause, then that was the worst thing he could have done. Had he gone camping instead, or out of town, he would have been better almost immediately.

Doctors couldn't figure it out, and after a year he slowly got better.

Hypothesis with that is they worked out some bugs in the system.

But every time I've gone to his town in the last ten years I've gotten sick.

But not everywhere in town.

Downtown by the courthouse was the worst, and I got a headache, which is something that never happens. Another person in the building had had a headache for three weeks.

That could be wiring faults in the building, it could be a nearby police radio tower, could be the wind farm, if the current is flowing through down town.

About five years ago I had to evacuate my father from his house because of the smart meters. I took a bus down there(Lawton, OK), and I was immediately sickened when I stepped off the bus.

I didn't feel until we had driven 30 miles north.

Same thing happened last time I went down there. I couldn't remember the name of my grandmother until I got 30 miles north of town.

My sister has a weird experience when she drove past that wind farm, here eyes went wonky on her just as she was driving past it.

The reason I suspect ground current rather than line current is because of that, and because I met a guy who used to install wind turbines, and he used a magnetometer to align the wiring with earth's magnetic field.

He said it wouldn't "work right" if he didn't do that.

My hypothesis is that the wind turbines may be inducing current into the ground that's going all the way through town, and may be oscillating the magnetic field.

But I need to take some measurements.

I was packing last time didn't have time to do an RF survey around town.

It could just be that.

But they replaced all the smart meters after they killed my dad with them, and that didn't bother me because they turned down the transmitters on the second try FAILED dunce meter experiment.

The transients in the wall wiring made me sick, but filters took care of that.

That could also be the problem. Transients from dunce meters and/or transients from the wind farm.

But there's definitely an electromagnetic defect issue down there.

People we know had strokes like my father did, many are sick, some have gone crazy.

It's Lawton, OK and the Blue Canyon Wind Farm.

I'm not faulting the wind farm until I know for sure but it's suspect.

And our Artillery School at FT. Sill is there too so it needs to be fixed.

Whatever it is.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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Luvapottamus
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09-10-2019 07:26 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #48
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Natura Naturans  Wrote: (09-10-2019 04:04 AM)
First you should find out if the windfarm is sending their output out as DC or AC. Most likely it will be AC unless it is a very large farm. You would likely not have ground current with AC. It is only a problem in areas of large DC high voltage lines, the ground under and around the lines carry a large return current. I understand cows and outher animals in fields around these lines are affected. So first you have to do research into what DC lines are in your area. They are conspicuous because they are very high voltage large lines.

Blue Canyon I Wind Farm consists of 45 Vestas NM72 1.65 MW wind turbines, Blue Canyon II Wind Farm consists of 84 Vestas V80 1.8 MW wind turbines, Blue Canyon V Wind Farm consists of 66 GE sle 1.5 MW wind turbines, and Blue Canyon VI Wind Farm consists of 55 Vestas V90 1.8 MW wind turbines.

https://bluecanyonwindfarm.com/

Let's install four different kinds!

That should make it SUPER clean.

chuckle

Efforting specs.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 07:40 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #49
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
[Image: 8my2Vch.png]

THat's the NM72^^^^


The V80-1.8 MW is optimized for a 60 Hz grid and is in the process of being UL compliant.

http://www.nrg-systems.hu/dok/V80%201,8%20MW%20EN.pdf

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 07:41 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #50
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Generator
Type: Double Fed Asyn
Number: 1
Speed, max: 1,500.0 U/min
Voltage: 690.0 V
Grid connection: IGBT
Grid frequency: 50/60 Hz
Hersteller: Loher/VEM

https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbi...-ge-1.5xle

That's the GE one.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 07:43 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #51
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Generator
Type: Asynchronous with OptiSpeed®
Number: 1
Speed, max: -
Voltage: 690.0 V
Grid connection: IGBT
Grid frequency: 50/60 Hz

https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbi...as-v90-1.8

That's the V90

Here's the issue I wonder about:

You have all these seperate turbines operating at different speeds generating AC electricity.

How do you get them all IN PHASE with each other?

Isn't that going to create a lot of LINE NOISE if you use switching to do it?

How do they do that?

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 07:45 PM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 07:48 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #52
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 05:03 AM)
Pasta Lover  Wrote: (09-10-2019 04:15 AM)
Why do you suspect there may be some currents in the ground system. What are you defining ground currents as?

"Ground" currents are when electricity (which has to flow in a loop called a "circuit") returns via any path other than the wires.

GFI circuits detect when the outgoing and returning currents are different (such as when you use a hair dryer in the bathtub) and shut down the circuit when the ground loop through you and the building plumbing is detected.

The neutral (white) is tied to a ground reference usually at the building entry. (black, blue, or red carry voltage, and green is ground), but the neutral and not the ground is supposed to return the current.

In fact the building entry is the only place where neutral and ground should meet. Subpanels should receive separate neutral and ground wires from the main and not be a ground point.

They shouldn't be bonded there either.

chuckle

The only reason the ground is bonded to the neutral is utilities wanted to cheap out on wire costs, so they return a lot of the current to the substation via the ground.

Through EVERY PATH of low resistance.

Mike Holt wrote a discussion about that, but I'm too lazy to find it right now:

https://www.mikeholt.com/

It's there somewhere^^^^

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 07:48 PM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
singing spider
krautistan terrarist
User ID: 515131
09-10-2019 07:48 PM

Posts: 10,664



Post: #53
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (09-10-2019 07:43 PM)
Generator
Type: Asynchronous with OptiSpeed®
Number: 1
Speed, max: -
Voltage: 690.0 V
Grid connection: IGBT
Grid frequency: 50/60 Hz

https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbi...as-v90-1.8

That's the V90

Here's the issue I wonder about:

You have all these seperate turbines operating at different speeds generating AC electricity.

How do you get them all IN PHASE with each other?

Isn't that going to create a lot of LINE NOISE if you use switching to do it?

How do they do that?

"grid frequency", that's the output
doesn't equal rotational frequency of the blades ;-)

[Image: giphy-facebook_s.jpg]

[Image: G2FRDqb.gif]


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92i5m3tV5XY
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 514344
09-10-2019 07:55 PM

 



Post: #54
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 06:52 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 06:47 AM)
The Chinese are experimenting on microwaving Americans with overhead satellites. They can detect your phone being used and zap that location whether you're inside or outside. If you experience a tightness in your chest and a dizziness in your head, you're probably a test victim.

Or you could have heart problems that you need a medical professional to diagnose and help you to repair..

Go outside and check, they're sitting in a black van across the street. Microwaving you.
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piequal3because14
Angel of Love from Heaven
User ID: 514454
09-10-2019 07:59 PM

Posts: 10,285



Post: #55
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
[Image: qpkZu8J.jpg]

Look into my eyes to see a Paradise of Love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqtHu0XFal0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7PY4vbQLE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTm9ui-26F0
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 08:01 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #56
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Found it:

The Grounding "Truth"

(snip)

The method used by Norway is known as the IT System and the only things grounded are the metal casings and parts at the load, which share a common ground line NOT bonded to the neutral. Norway uses it particularly because the earth has very low conductivity and other countries use it around hospitals or where human safety is emphasized. There are basically two other systems; the one used by the U.S. is the TN System in which all neutrals, casings, and metal parts are bonded to the earth. Essentially, this system forces the earth to share the common point of the distribution system.

The pros of the TN System are that it's very easy for protection devices to detect faults and the earth can be used as a (supposedly) temporary conductor to maintain the continuity of distribution. The cons you know better than me - the earth is now "energized" directly at the distribution's potential and its wide use as a conductor is becoming a hazard for people and animals.

....

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive...040602.php

He recommends we switch to Norway's system.

And he's on the board that write the national electrical code.

lol

So why haven't we?

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 08:01 PM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 08:08 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #57
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
singing spider  Wrote: (09-10-2019 07:48 PM)
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (09-10-2019 07:43 PM)
Generator
Type: Asynchronous with OptiSpeed®
Number: 1
Speed, max: -
Voltage: 690.0 V
Grid connection: IGBT
Grid frequency: 50/60 Hz

https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbi...as-v90-1.8

That's the V90

Here's the issue I wonder about:

You have all these seperate turbines operating at different speeds generating AC electricity.

How do you get them all IN PHASE with each other?

Isn't that going to create a lot of LINE NOISE if you use switching to do it?

How do they do that?

"grid frequency", that's the output
doesn't equal rotational frequency of the blades ;-)

It has a transmission and an electronic regulator to make sure they all putout 670V AC @ 60Hz.

But you have a whole bunch of them.

And though they're all 60 Hz they aren't in PHASE with each other.

How do they phaze them?

Problem with stashpit, but I'll load a diagram in a bit.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
Tax Wallstreet Party
United Front Against Austerity
Quote this message in a reply
Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 08:11 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #58
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 07:55 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 06:52 AM)
Or you could have heart problems that you need a medical professional to diagnose and help you to repair..

Go outside and check, they're sitting in a black van across the street. Microwaving you.

It does happen.

And it could be a Russian or Chinese satellite effecting the town, but I doubt it.

They'd aim it at the Military Base.

I suspect it's simply incompetence in the Wind Industry.

Investigation into tracker found on Oklahoma legislator's car leads to Texas political consultant

The OSBI has determined a longtime Texas political consultant known as Dr. Dirt hired the private investigators who put a tracker on a legislator's pickup court records show.

The consultant, George C. Shipley, 70, has been subpoenaed to appear next week before the Oklahoma multicounty grand jury "to provide testimony."

Shipley was told to bring business records on who hired him to do research into state Rep. Mark McBride, R-Moore.

The legislator found a GPS tracking device underneath his pickup on the evening of Dec. 4. He has blamed the wind industry.

The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation special agent on the case already has tried to determine whether Shipley has ties to a wind organization in the same city.

"A friend ... told him the 'wind group' wanted to discredit McBride and for McBride to be careful," Special Agent Steve Tanner wrote in a court affidavit. "McBride was attempting to write legislation to tax wind energy companies because he felt those companies could pay more taxes to Oklahoma."...

https://oklahoman.com/article/5585064/in...consultant

Everybody ready for my turn?

chuckle

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 08:25 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #59
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
[Image: L63LGDn.gif]

That's a three phase 60hz system.

Each phase is 120 degrees separated.

There's 250 of these generators.

Are they each 3 phase, or one phase?

It doesn't say in the brochures, by my point is either way, you have to align each one so that they line up like that^^^^^With each of the other 249 of them.

The easiest way I can think to do that is to apply field at just the right time when you initiate generation.

But windmills start and stop all the time, and slow down under spec.

So at any given time of day some may be coming on and off, and this must be "noisy."

Much noisier than a hydro dam or gas or coal plant where you have 1-12 turbines usually.

Which can be phased mechanically.

With valves.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
Tax Wallstreet Party
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(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 08:25 PM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 08:30 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #60
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
If these are neutral/ground bonded, each time one turbine comes on or off it sends ground current through different paths of low resistance.

All paths of low resistance.

And that would FUBAR the magnetic field of the earth in that area.

Which is granite mountains.


[Image: U5bMTPq.jpg]

You don't think mountains when I say Oklahoma but the second highest point in the state is near Lawton.

And these rocks are full of metals.

chuckle

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
Tax Wallstreet Party
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