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Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Lord DunLOP
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User ID: 514840
09-10-2019 08:52 PM

Posts: 716



Post: #61
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
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LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 05:03 AM)
Pasta Lover  Wrote: (09-10-2019 04:15 AM)
Why do you suspect there may be some currents in the ground system. What are you defining ground currents as?

"Ground" currents are when electricity (which has to flow in a loop called a "circuit") returns via any path other than the wires.

GFI circuits detect when the outgoing and returning currents are different (such as when you use a hair dryer in the bathtub) and shut down the circuit when the ground loop through you and the building plumbing is detected.

The neutral (white) is tied to a ground reference usually at the building entry. (black, blue, or red carry voltage, and green is ground), but the neutral and not the ground is supposed to return the current.

In fact the building entry is the only place where neutral and ground should meet. Subpanels should receive separate neutral and ground wires from the main and not be a ground point.

It is common knowledge that ground and neutral conductors share the same buss in the electrical distribution panel. And therefore since energy follows the path of least resistance plenty of current is returned to generator to create the circuit via the earth.

If you're thinking you can weed out which ground current came from a wind turbine and which came from a chunk of coal you are dreaming.

It's the Environment, stupid.
______________________________________

The finish-line of the Rat Race lays in
Oblivion.
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 09:02 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #62
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Lord DunLOP  Wrote: (09-10-2019 08:52 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 05:03 AM)
"Ground" currents are when electricity (which has to flow in a loop called a "circuit") returns via any path other than the wires.

GFI circuits detect when the outgoing and returning currents are different (such as when you use a hair dryer in the bathtub) and shut down the circuit when the ground loop through you and the building plumbing is detected.

The neutral (white) is tied to a ground reference usually at the building entry. (black, blue, or red carry voltage, and green is ground), but the neutral and not the ground is supposed to return the current.

In fact the building entry is the only place where neutral and ground should meet. Subpanels should receive separate neutral and ground wires from the main and not be a ground point.

It is common knowledge that ground and neutral conductors share the same buss in the electrical distribution panel. And therefore since energy follows the path of least resistance plenty of current is returned to generator to create the circuit via the earth.

If you're thinking you can weed out which ground current came from a wind turbine and which came from a chunk of coal you are dreaming.

EVERY PATH of low resistance.

Don't have to weed anything.

I just need to measure noise.

And find out when we are on wind power and when we aren't and compare the two.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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singing spider
krautistan terrarist
User ID: 515131
09-10-2019 09:08 PM

Posts: 10,664



Post: #63
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (09-10-2019 08:08 PM)
singing spider  Wrote: (09-10-2019 07:48 PM)
"grid frequency", that's the output
doesn't equal rotational frequency of the blades ;-)

It has a transmission and an electronic regulator to make sure they all putout 670V AC @ 60Hz.

But you have a whole bunch of them.

And though they're all 60 Hz they aren't in PHASE with each other.

How do they phaze them?

Problem with stashpit, but I'll load a diagram in a bit.

according to this graphic it's first converted to dc and then back to synchronized ac

[Image: synchronous_generator.gif]

[Image: giphy-facebook_s.jpg]

[Image: G2FRDqb.gif]


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92i5m3tV5XY
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-10-2019 09:09 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #64
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
singing spider  Wrote: (09-10-2019 09:08 PM)
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (09-10-2019 08:08 PM)
It has a transmission and an electronic regulator to make sure they all putout 670V AC @ 60Hz.

But you have a whole bunch of them.

And though they're all 60 Hz they aren't in PHASE with each other.

How do they phaze them?

Problem with stashpit, but I'll load a diagram in a bit.

according to this graphic it's first converted to dc and then back to synchronized ac

[Image: synchronous_generator.gif]

Weird.

chuckle

Maybe for off shore.

It'd make more sense at this place to skip some steps.

They should have bought DC generators.

Then oscillated that.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 09:11 PM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
Pasta Lover
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User ID: 418981
09-10-2019 09:11 PM

Posts: 8,161



Post: #65
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (09-10-2019 07:43 PM)
Generator
Type: Asynchronous with OptiSpeed®
Number: 1
Speed, max: -
Voltage: 690.0 V
Grid connection: IGBT
Grid frequency: 50/60 Hz

https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbi...as-v90-1.8

That's the V90

Here's the issue I wonder about:

You have all these seperate turbines operating at different speeds generating AC electricity.

How do you get them all IN PHASE with each other?

Isn't that going to create a lot of LINE NOISE if you use switching to do it?

How do they do that?

First of all IGBTs can be noisy buggers. They can induce high frequencies due to the chopping circuit. They probably filter that though. The grid frequency and base load are handled by the big generators. They are coal fired, nat gas or nuclear. Also diesel in some cases. There are a number of different wind turbine designs. The issue is matching the grid frequency when the wind speeds up or slows down.

One of the later designs is the Double Fed Induction Generator. It allows the turbine to run at somewhat faster or slower speeds than the grid frequency. It has two coils one that is a stator(doesn't move) and a rotor(rotates). This allows for some slip. Kinda sounds like a rotary phase converter.

Other systems generate 3 phase AC that gets converted to DC, then that goes into an inverter and is synced to the grid electronically. Similar to solar I would guess.

Dynamically positioned drill ships operate in a similar way. They have multiple diesel generators that can operate in parallel synced to a common bus. That bus is connected to an array of SCRs. The SCRs convert it to DC and depending on the various loads either leave it as DC or convert it to AC. The thrusters are DC and various utility loads such as induction motors on equipment are AC.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 386858
09-10-2019 09:29 PM

 



Post: #66
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
I like pasta lovers idea ... static electricity

wind turbines are like giant van degraff generators


*****

COWS ARE DYING & HUMANS ARE SICK SINCE NOZAY WIND OPENED
MARCH 28, 2019 MUM4KIDS 1 COMMENT
Since the opening of the Nozay wind farm, cows are dying and humans are sick
25 mars 2019 / Thibault Dumas (Mediacités)

https://mothersagainstturbines.com/categ...y-voltage/

d: March 28, 2019 • France

French farmers claim cows are dying due to turbines and solar panels
Credit: 28 March 2019 | http://www.farminguk.com ~~
French farmers claim that solar panels and wind turbines in Brittany are releasing electricity into the ground which is slowly killing their livestock.
In the Brittany region several farmers have reported losses of hundreds of cows, and veterinarians have been unable to explain the cause.
But after tests on the region’s farmland, some are claiming that electricity is travelling through the ground which is leading to severe weight loss in animals and ultimately death.
The mysterious cattle deaths has led one Côte d’amour farmer to file a lawsuit against a company, which has not been named.
Patrick Le Nechet told Europe1 his cows started dying when photovoltaic solar panels were installed on the land.
He conducted his own test on surrounding land and water and found electricity currents of over one volt.
The farmer said that watching all his animals die is ‘unbearable’.
“They lost weight, we lost 120 in five years. It can not be explained, even veterinarians do not know what to do,” Mr Le Nechet said.

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2019/03/...ar-panels/
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 386858
09-10-2019 09:32 PM

 



Post: #67
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012/05/...m-animals/

Stray voltage
Animals can also be impacted negatively by stray voltage, also known as dirty electricity. Cows living near power lines, for example, have experienced reduced milk production and even been observed “dancing” in fields due to electricity in the ground, according to scientific research presented by experts at the International Conference on Production Diseases in Farm Animals at Michigan State University.
Magda Havas, PhD, has published a provocative article titled “What do Dancing Cows and Zapped Dogs Have in Common?” Havas reports on stray voltage, or ground current, in Toronto, Canada that killed a dog and zapped a child. Cattle have been videotaped “dancing” or lifting hooves repetitively from being shocked by electrical voltage in the ground, Havas reveals.
High ground currents from stray voltage have been measured near multiple wind facilities, including Palm Springs and Campo, California. The latter has had ground currents measured at 1,000 times normal in the Manzanita Indians’ tribal hall and church near a wind facility on a neighboring reservation, according to measurements taken by Dr. Samuel Milham, author of Dirty Energy.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 386858
09-10-2019 09:34 PM

 



Post: #68
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?


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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 465738
09-10-2019 09:38 PM

 



Post: #69
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
As a physics student I would say there is zilch chance of any ground current from the actual generator unless its shorted to the housing.

Now what is possible since you have rather large structures and blades moving through the air is static electricity would could cause ground currents based on differences in potential. Kind of like when you comb your hair on a cold day and your hair stands up.

If you had a sensitive voltmeter you could put a couple of stakes in the ground and measure the potential difference at different locations. You'd want to put the stakes as far apart as practical. That would tell you if there is a ground current but not the magnitude.

I'm sure how such a current could kill cows unless it was pretty big.
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Pasta Lover
Registered User
User ID: 418981
09-10-2019 09:59 PM

Posts: 8,161



Post: #70
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 09:38 PM)
As a physics student I would say there is zilch chance of any ground current from the actual generator unless its shorted to the housing.

Now what is possible since you have rather large structures and blades moving through the air is static electricity would could cause ground currents based on differences in potential. Kind of like when you comb your hair on a cold day and your hair stands up.

If you had a sensitive voltmeter you could put a couple of stakes in the ground and measure the potential difference at different locations. You'd want to put the stakes as far apart as practical. That would tell you if there is a ground current but not the magnitude.

I'm sure how such a current could kill cows unless it was pretty big.

Due to the long distance, you would have to compensate for the leadwire resistance. Process transmitters do this by using a 3 or 4 wire setup. It's called leadwire compensation.
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Fire of Prometheus
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User ID: 423816
09-11-2019 11:10 AM

Posts: 560



Post: #71
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
A wind farm has to have a lot of wires to carry the current to central distribution, that's a lot of distance for D.C. to waste power. D.C. is really wasteful when you run long lines, it creates a big magnetic field that fights the movement of current. With A.C. the field does not get to fight, instead every phase change gives a little boost that is close to the power wasted to build the field.
If the generators all had to be synchronized the cost would be insane to build them.
Its simpler to have each one send A.C. to a central power conditioning station where everything can be monitored and converted/synchronized to the grid.
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Fire of Prometheus
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User ID: 423816
09-11-2019 11:10 AM

Posts: 560



Post: #72
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
I had some thoughts on looking for ground currents.
If its D.C. and strong enough to do anything there will be lines of force strong enough to deflect a compass needle.
Get a simple needle type compass and walk around, watch the needle, if it deflects at certain points, and you see no wires nearby its a strong D.C. ground current.

A.C. is a lot trickier, you need to have a hand held antenna connected to a frequency counter, start with a simple loop antenna held horizontal, move it around in an area you think there might be a ground current.
If you find something, switch to a straight antenna tuned to the desired frequency, and connected to something like a diode detector and a signal tracer(small audio amp) then move and rotate around to find where the signal is loudest.
When you rotate if the antenna is 90 degrees off from the path of the current the signal will be the lowest, when the antenna is aligned parallel to the current the signal will be strongest.
This will only work if the signal is strong enough to effect things, and your equipment has the correct frequency range.

A static charge would make your hair stand on end, but will not really move(its static).
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Luvapottamus
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User ID: 372884
09-11-2019 05:06 PM

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Post: #73
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Pasta Lover  Wrote: (09-10-2019 09:11 PM)
First of all IGBTs can be noisy buggers.

Al of that is really dirty.

Speaker connects ‘dirty electricity’ to wind power
Credit: By Nelson Zandbergen - AgriNews Staff Writer | January, 2013 Vol. 37, No. 1 | http://www.agrinewsinteractive.com ~~

SOUTH MOUNTAIN – Dairy farmers are familiar with the negative health effects of wayward electrical energy: Stray voltage can be the bane of keeping milk cows as productive and healthy as possible.

Armed with this understanding, a retired dairy farmer now working as a stray-voltage dairy consultant – who once leased some of his own land to a wind-power developer several years ago – is drawing attention to another kind of unwanted electrical interference he attributes to the “cheap” DC-to-AC power inverters employed by wind- and solar-farm installations.

David Colling maintains that developers’ reliance on such equipment to process their final output of alternating current (AC) feeds a problematic high frequency into the power grid and the internal wiring of nearby homes and buildings.

This “dirty electricity” can sicken people and disturb animals, he suggested in a late-November address to local wind-power opponents gathered at South Mountain’s agricultural hall.

Instead of the smooth-sided “sine wave” expected of a clean AC source, the contaminated current shows a jaggedness when measured on an oscilloscope, according to Colling, who says he turned against the wind industry after a developer in his Ripley, Ontario, area, briefly hired him to measure the phenomenon, then refused to acknowledge a problem when he became an advocate for five affected families.

“It is imperative that both wind turbines and solar installations generate as close to a pure 60Hz sine wave as possible to minimize adverse effects of transient harmonics to both equipment and human health,” said the guest speaker, citing research by an associate professor of Environmental & Resource Studies at Trent University, Dr. Magna Havas.

Carried into buildings through the neutral wire, the unwanted frequency then radiates from the wiring inside the structure, according to Colling. He relayed anecdotes about several families in his area whose health symptoms – including migraines and ear aches – suddenly disappeared after the wind company disconnected them from the grid and supplied power with on-site generators. “They tried to prove me wrong, and it backfired.”

The company finally bought out the homeowners, he said, assuring the audience that no other Ontario wind developer would ever follow that precedent again...

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2013/01/...ind-power/

I had to install $350 worth of filters in my dead father's house to tolerate it enough to move his belongings out.

And I still had over 50 transients/second which is still toxic.

But some of that is from the dunce meter.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 372884
09-11-2019 05:07 PM

Posts: 11,427



Post: #74
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Dr. Samuel Milham: “Smart meters are a public health hazard.”

[Image: sBQKW0d.jpg]

Posted on April 9, 2017by SkyVision Solutions
by K.T. Weaver, SkyVision Solutions
As part of direct testimony [1] filed in an electric utility rate case in Arizona, Samuel Milham, M.D., M.P.H. stated:

“It is my professional opinion that smart meters are a public health hazard.”

Dr. Milham (physician-epidemiologist) is the author of Dirty Electricity as well as over 100 peer-reviewed scientific publications. Dr. Milham’s assertion is that adverse health effects can be caused by the “electrical pollution (dirty electricity) generated by the smart meter SMPS [switching mode power supply].”


Most people assume that when adverse health complaints are reported due to “smart” meters that the likely cause would be the intentional wireless RF emissions transmitted through air from the smart meter back to the utility. These reported health effects are certainly plausible based upon the evidence already presented at this website [2][3]. However, there are additional possible sources of electromagnetic field (EMF) exposure associated with smart meters, e.g., dirty electricity (DE).

As explained by Dr. Milham [1]:

“Dirty electricity” or “dirty power” are terms coined by the electric utilities to describe the electrical pollution consisting of high frequency voltage transients and harmonics riding along on the 50 or 60 Hz wave form and contaminating the electricity delivered to users. …

The APS “smart” meters are electronic devices which replaced the old electromechanical analog meters used to measure electric power consumption for billing purposes. The smart meters have circuitry to measure power consumption and a microwave transmitter to send this information to the utility. The health effects of microwave exposures are well known. All transmitters, including the microwave transmitters in smart meters, operate on direct current (DC). The APS smart meters contain a switching mode power supply (SMPS) which changes the utility 60 Hz alternating current to DC. …

Because it is at the front end of a building’s wiring, the dirty electricity from the smart meter’s SMPS has a gateway into that building’s wiring, and also into the earth via the house ground. The house wiring acts as an antenna and the fields capacitively couple to the body through the air within 6 to 8 feet of the house wiring or extension cords plugged into the outlets. …

I believe that our evolutionary balance, developed over the millennia, has been severely disturbed and disrupted by man-made EMFs. I believe that man-made EMFs, especially dirty electricity, are chronic stressors and are responsible for many of the disease patterns of electrified populations. …

It is my professional opinion that smart meters are a public health hazard...

https://smartgridawareness.org/2017/04/0...th-hazard/

With a tesla hydro turbine and analog meters you have none of these problems. Until you add other loads.

Same with gas, coal, nuclear.

Because you can synchronize the generators MECHANICALLY.

Had to heavily snip your reply, Pasta, because of internal server error.

There is no such thing as sovereign debt. Reinstate Greenbacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb5OQUElilo
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 465738
09-11-2019 05:14 PM

 



Post: #75
RE: Ground Loop to detect ground currents?
Pasta Lover  Wrote: (09-10-2019 09:59 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-10-2019 09:38 PM)
As a physics student I would say there is zilch chance of any ground current from the actual generator unless its shorted to the housing.

Now what is possible since you have rather large structures and blades moving through the air is static electricity would could cause ground currents based on differences in potential. Kind of like when you comb your hair on a cold day and your hair stands up.

If you had a sensitive voltmeter you could put a couple of stakes in the ground and measure the potential difference at different locations. You'd want to put the stakes as far apart as practical. That would tell you if there is a ground current but not the magnitude.

I'm sure how such a current could kill cows unless it was pretty big.

Due to the long distance, you would have to compensate for the leadwire resistance. Process transmitters do this by using a 3 or 4 wire setup. It's called leadwire compensation.

I kind of doubt that would be necessary unless you were looking for really accurate measurements. Voltmeters have a fairly large impedance on most scales. Place the rods in the ground like 50 feet apart and use a large copper wire to hook to the voltmeter and a second wire to short between the rods to get a zero measurement.

If its too small to measure its probably not a problem. I'd do it on a windy day to try and max static.

Ground loops occur where you have more than one ground and you develop a difference in potential between them.
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