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Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
spɹɐʍoɔ snoɯʎuouɐ
☇☇Vocem sine nomine audivit!☇☇
User ID: kaput
03-13-2018 02:43 AM

Posts: 8,070



Post: #1
Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
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“You Are the Problem”

Quote:“To say over and over, both formally as the Democratic Party and also rhetorically as the pundit class, ‘You all are wrong about what you need and want,’ is not doing it.” — Katherine Mangu-Ward

“It’s hard to tell who started it,” Katherine Mangu-Ward wrote in a Sunday opinion column for the New York Times. She was referring to the political climate in 2018, and the cultural conversation surrounding it, especially online. Mangu-Ward, the editor in chief of the libertarian magazine Reason, believes that there are two groups responsible for this undeniably depressing state of affairs—liberals (“cozy in their elite enclaves on the coasts, who burrowed down into self-righteousness, lecturing working-class Republicans about how they misunderstand their own interests”) and the modern right (“reared in the meme swamps of Reddit and 4chan, who emerged blinking into the daylight of politics and set about baiting anyone who disagreed with their chosen Republican king”). The smugness of the former group and the trollishness of the latter have fed off one another, she writes, creating the vicious cycle that is our politics today.

I recently spoke by phone with Mangu-Ward. During the course of our conversation, which has been edited and condensed for clarity, we discussed how Donald Trump gets away with criticizing America, whether we are too politically correct about Trump voters, and if it is possible to avoid being smug when telling people you think they are voting against their own self-interest.

Isaac Chotiner: You write in your piece that, “The problem isn’t just filter bubbles, echo chambers or alternative facts. It’s tone: When the loudest voices on the left talk about people on the right as either beyond the pale or dupes of their betters, it is with an air of barely concealed smugness. Right-wingers, for their part, increasingly respond with a churlish ‘Oh, yeah? Hold my beer,’ and then double down on whatever politically incorrect sentiment brought on the disdain in the first place.” The way that’s written implies that the right-wing attitude that we see online and from the president is a response to a smug leftism. Is that how you see this—that essentially the right is merely reacting to something?

Katherine Mangu-Ward: The sentence that’s at the very top of the piece is, “It’s hard to tell who started it.” I actually do believe that. I think it is not a case of a single original sin that sent us cascading down into the rhetorical swamps where we now live. But I do find that, although I am demographically and in many ways even ideologically sympathetic to people on the left, in this story, in the story of smug versus trolls, I find myself sympathetic to the right, sympathetic to this response of, “Fine, if you’re going to see me that way, I’ll double down on it. I’ll be as bad as you think I am.”

The idea, then, is that people are accused of being racist, or see other people being called racist, and as a response to that say, “You know what? I’m going to vote for a racist, or I’m going to be part of a political movement that looks the other way about racism.” If that is actually going on, and let’s grant for the sake of argument that it is, it’s a very strange way of operating in the world.

I guess I would challenge the way that you set that up. I think that when people feel that they’ve been accused of something horrible, like racism, or that their peers or friends have, that they respond negatively, and that they respond by maybe overstating their own case, or mocking the other side. I don’t think that it’s an accurate mental picture to say they responded by voting for a racist. I think they say, “You on the left are either overstating or overvaluing that particular aspect of Donald Trump. However, he has a lot of other attributes that you don’t value at all, and you’re wrong to not value those things.”

You say that smug people on the coasts, to speak broadly, look at people who vote for Republicans, white working-class people, and say, “You guys don’t understand your own economic interests.” That comes across as smug, and that makes people respond in a certain way. But if that’s your objective analysis of what’s going on, how do you think we should have that conversation? The sincere belief of many people on the left is that working-class people on the right are being taken advantage of, in this case by a con man.

The definitive piece on this, which I didn’t explicitly reference, but consulted, is Emmett Rensin’s Vox piece on the “smug style” in American liberalism. I find that piece to be a very compelling account of the demographic reasons why liberals believe that thing that you just described, [which is] that essentially the liberal coalition has been hollowed out. While it used to be a coalition that spread more evenly across different socioeconomic classes and a broader geographical area, it’s now rich, white people and then people of color, to oversimplify it dramatically. He says, and I think it’s true, that there’s a certain amount of baffled resentment at the class of people that abandoned the left. It was a coalition that made sense to the rest of the left before, when it was intact, and so the natural inclination then is to say, “Something’s gone wrong that those people left us, and it must be that they’re confused and were right before.”

I think that that explanation explains the weirdly emotional approach to this. It explains why people aren’t just like, “Oh, that’s a bummer,” or like, “You seem to be under a misapprehension,” but are like, “Screw you, you idiots,” because they were abandoned.

I think the flip side of that is that if you talk to conservative intellectuals, they don’t know what happened in their party. They are very confused about what happened. The sort of Never Trumpism among National Review types and others shows that they too are confused about what happened with that demographic.

more:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018...imate.html

This smugness as a reaction to never ending circular fallacy from the right is what is causing the downward spiral in political dialogue .. It's an old problem that spiraled out of control and then has been played for the last 20 years if not longer.

Is there a way out?







[Image: zXPwukO.jpg]
©®℮å†E
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 02:48 AM

 



Post: #2
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
blah blah blah blah. blah

as a lefty i'd like to say
get f**ked.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 02:54 AM

 



Post: #3
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
I don't know what do jew think?
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spɹɐʍoɔ snoɯʎuouɐ
☇☇Vocem sine nomine audivit!☇☇
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 03:06 AM

Posts: 8,070



Post: #4
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
Trying to make some sense of it all,
But I can see that it makes no sense at all...




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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 03:07 AM

 



Post: #5
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
No that would be the bankers who put on the political reality tv show that you so stupidly fall far.
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spɹɐʍoɔ snoɯʎuouɐ
☇☇Vocem sine nomine audivit!☇☇
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 05:20 AM

Posts: 8,070



Post: #6
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
[Image: 29136126_1274378935997326_83238390427727...e=5B4DB35A]
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 06:13 AM

 



Post: #7
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
ARROGANT SMUG Egotistical bunch of SH!TBAGS!
They have the WORST Ideas about Money and Economy.
They have Stolen 20 Trillion Dollars!

They should all HANG!
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 06:21 AM

 



Post: #8
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
TRUMP seems to Be Repealing All the Liberal Progressive BULLSHIT
to Free Our Lives Up of Space and Time!

Eliminating worries and creating work and prosperity.
Cut our tax rates and eliminating regulations that slow
down progress.

Liberals great Distraction and BULLSHIT so they can ROB us BLIND!
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 06:34 AM

 



Post: #9
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
LoP Guest  Wrote: (03-13-2018 03:07 AM)
No that would be the bankers who put on the political reality tv show that you so stupidly fall far.

It's either that or accept that a woman would do things to her child I couldn't do to d*ck Cheney without any help or influence from the Behaviorists. I'd really rather blame a mistake in that case, because the alternative is a baby back ribs franchise utilizing real babies. Sometimes it's comforting to cling to conspiracy theories.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 07:43 AM

 



Post: #10
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
i would characterize it as hypocrisy and delusion not smugness
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 07:44 AM

 



Post: #11
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
Well partly the real reason of course is insanity but you don't have to be smug about it.

Scream1
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 08:25 AM

 



Post: #12
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
It's because hillary lost and now there is punishment and vitrol at every turn. The television told people if they hop on that bandwagon then they are smart and if they saw it different then they are idiots and whatever false labels they could slap on people who just want to be left alone...
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Archangel
Michael
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 08:30 AM

Posts: 3,824



Post: #13
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
If Satan is one's God, then blame him for this mess. That's who's running the show. We can tell by the end results.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 08:31 AM

 



Post: #14
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
spɹɐʍoɔ snoɯʎuouɐ  Wrote: (03-13-2018 02:43 AM)
“You Are the Problem”

Quote:“To say over and over, both formally as the Democratic Party and also rhetorically as the pundit class, ‘You all are wrong about what you need and want,’ is not doing it.” — Katherine Mangu-Ward

“It’s hard to tell who started it,” Katherine Mangu-Ward wrote in a Sunday opinion column for the New York Times. She was referring to the political climate in 2018, and the cultural conversation surrounding it, especially online. Mangu-Ward, the editor in chief of the libertarian magazine Reason, believes that there are two groups responsible for this undeniably depressing state of affairs—liberals (“cozy in their elite enclaves on the coasts, who burrowed down into self-righteousness, lecturing working-class Republicans about how they misunderstand their own interests”) and the modern right (“reared in the meme swamps of Reddit and 4chan, who emerged blinking into the daylight of politics and set about baiting anyone who disagreed with their chosen Republican king”). The smugness of the former group and the trollishness of the latter have fed off one another, she writes, creating the vicious cycle that is our politics today.

I recently spoke by phone with Mangu-Ward. During the course of our conversation, which has been edited and condensed for clarity, we discussed how Donald Trump gets away with criticizing America, whether we are too politically correct about Trump voters, and if it is possible to avoid being smug when telling people you think they are voting against their own self-interest.

Isaac Chotiner: You write in your piece that, “The problem isn’t just filter bubbles, echo chambers or alternative facts. It’s tone: When the loudest voices on the left talk about people on the right as either beyond the pale or dupes of their betters, it is with an air of barely concealed smugness. Right-wingers, for their part, increasingly respond with a churlish ‘Oh, yeah? Hold my beer,’ and then double down on whatever politically incorrect sentiment brought on the disdain in the first place.” The way that’s written implies that the right-wing attitude that we see online and from the president is a response to a smug leftism. Is that how you see this—that essentially the right is merely reacting to something?

Katherine Mangu-Ward: The sentence that’s at the very top of the piece is, “It’s hard to tell who started it.” I actually do believe that. I think it is not a case of a single original sin that sent us cascading down into the rhetorical swamps where we now live. But I do find that, although I am demographically and in many ways even ideologically sympathetic to people on the left, in this story, in the story of smug versus trolls, I find myself sympathetic to the right, sympathetic to this response of, “Fine, if you’re going to see me that way, I’ll double down on it. I’ll be as bad as you think I am.”

The idea, then, is that people are accused of being racist, or see other people being called racist, and as a response to that say, “You know what? I’m going to vote for a racist, or I’m going to be part of a political movement that looks the other way about racism.” If that is actually going on, and let’s grant for the sake of argument that it is, it’s a very strange way of operating in the world.

I guess I would challenge the way that you set that up. I think that when people feel that they’ve been accused of something horrible, like racism, or that their peers or friends have, that they respond negatively, and that they respond by maybe overstating their own case, or mocking the other side. I don’t think that it’s an accurate mental picture to say they responded by voting for a racist. I think they say, “You on the left are either overstating or overvaluing that particular aspect of Donald Trump. However, he has a lot of other attributes that you don’t value at all, and you’re wrong to not value those things.”

You say that smug people on the coasts, to speak broadly, look at people who vote for Republicans, white working-class people, and say, “You guys don’t understand your own economic interests.” That comes across as smug, and that makes people respond in a certain way. But if that’s your objective analysis of what’s going on, how do you think we should have that conversation? The sincere belief of many people on the left is that working-class people on the right are being taken advantage of, in this case by a con man.

The definitive piece on this, which I didn’t explicitly reference, but consulted, is Emmett Rensin’s Vox piece on the “smug style” in American liberalism. I find that piece to be a very compelling account of the demographic reasons why liberals believe that thing that you just described, [which is] that essentially the liberal coalition has been hollowed out. While it used to be a coalition that spread more evenly across different socioeconomic classes and a broader geographical area, it’s now rich, white people and then people of color, to oversimplify it dramatically. He says, and I think it’s true, that there’s a certain amount of baffled resentment at the class of people that abandoned the left. It was a coalition that made sense to the rest of the left before, when it was intact, and so the natural inclination then is to say, “Something’s gone wrong that those people left us, and it must be that they’re confused and were right before.”

I think that that explanation explains the weirdly emotional approach to this. It explains why people aren’t just like, “Oh, that’s a bummer,” or like, “You seem to be under a misapprehension,” but are like, “Screw you, you idiots,” because they were abandoned.

I think the flip side of that is that if you talk to conservative intellectuals, they don’t know what happened in their party. They are very confused about what happened. The sort of Never Trumpism among National Review types and others shows that they too are confused about what happened with that demographic.

more:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018...imate.html

This smugness as a reaction to never ending circular fallacy from the right is what is causing the downward spiral in political dialogue .. It's an old problem that spiraled out of control and then has been played for the last 20 years if not longer.

Is there a way out?







Yes, there wouldn't be a Trump Admin without you watermelon/snowflakes.

Blame yourselves...

Simple.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 1337
03-13-2018 08:34 AM

 



Post: #15
RE: Is liberal smugness to blame for our god-awful political climate?
Progressive smugness is
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