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Socialism a proven a failure
LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 505352
02-16-2020 10:04 PM

 




Post: #166
RE: Socialism a proven a failure
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LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 09:53 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 09:14 PM)
One simple corrective to capitalism that would save it, like having generous social programs often does, would be requiring profit sharing in all businesses and capitalist endeavors. Half of profits go to workers, half goe looks to owners and shareholders. Not perfect but would be a reasonable compromise and corrective. Too bad that capitalists and owners are just too damn greedy to enact these rudimentary policies that introduce some degree of fundamental fairness into the equation of economics.
Many successful businesses do have some form of profit sharing, it's actually good for business in terms of staff motivation. I've had bonuses based on a share of company profits, heavily discounted share options, my wife is offered discounted shares every year where she works. There always has to be some return for the investors so, according to Marx, capitalism is doomed to lurch from one crisis to the next as the sum of the workers wages will always be smaller than the sum of the cost of the products they produce for sale.

LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 09:14 PM)
They would rather bribe and corrupt governments and give workers the absolute bare minimum even if it eventually bankrupts society and leads to violent revolution. And here we have one of the fatal flaws of capitalism: no long term thinking or concerns about the future beyond the capitalists' lifespan. They reckon the collapse will not come on their watch so f*#k the future generations - Pollute at will, f*#k the workers and the poor, buy another yacht, etc. etc.
There are things the market can't find a rational value for, like a polluted environment. These factors are called market externalities because they don't affect the market price of a product. So now it's often agreed that the externalities should be factored into the market. An example of this is carbon pricing. If products are priced to include the cost on the environment of emitting CO2 then the market will tend to minimise the pollution of the products sold. So it should be possible to factor other externalities into markets to achieve social good. Maybe consumers choosing to pay more for sustainable products or from companies that pay the living wage is one way this can happen.

To your first reply, yes, it help motivate. This is one of the major benefits to both "classes." And, while it doesn't eliminate completely the business cycle as Marx identified and you pointed out, it lessens its severity as do the social programs that can a part of a balanced hybrid system.

Not sure how I feel about the whole carbon credit system but you are thinking complexly about the issue. The problems with industry and pollution is so much more complex than CO2 and there has to be major well-funded oversight agencies with teeth that can protect nature and the lifeforms that depend on it. Many profit generating activities are simply not worth the cost to future generations. Especially when you consider such things as built-in obsolescence and fashion concerns generating endless waste.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 533945
02-16-2020 10:21 PM

 




Post: #167
RE: Socialism a proven a failure
LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 10:04 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 09:53 PM)
Many successful businesses do have some form of profit sharing, it's actually good for business in terms of staff motivation. I've had bonuses based on a share of company profits, heavily discounted share options, my wife is offered discounted shares every year where she works. There always has to be some return for the investors so, according to Marx, capitalism is doomed to lurch from one crisis to the next as the sum of the workers wages will always be smaller than the sum of the cost of the products they produce for sale.

There are things the market can't find a rational value for, like a polluted environment. These factors are called market externalities because they don't affect the market price of a product. So now it's often agreed that the externalities should be factored into the market. An example of this is carbon pricing. If products are priced to include the cost on the environment of emitting CO2 then the market will tend to minimise the pollution of the products sold. So it should be possible to factor other externalities into markets to achieve social good. Maybe consumers choosing to pay more for sustainable products or from companies that pay the living wage is one way this can happen.

To your first reply, yes, it help motivate. This is one of the major benefits to both "classes." And, while it doesn't eliminate completely the business cycle as Marx identified and you pointed out, it lessens its severity as do the social programs that can a part of a balanced hybrid system.

Not sure how I feel about the whole carbon credit system but you are thinking complexly about the issue. The problems with industry and pollution is so much more complex than CO2 and there has to be major well-funded oversight agencies with teeth that can protect nature and the lifeforms that depend on it. Many profit generating activities are simply not worth the cost to future generations. Especially when you consider such things as built-in obsolescence and fashion concerns generating endless waste.

Yes there are a number of ways of Introducing e.g. environmental externalities. For instance environmental regulations impose a cost on all products in the market so the consumer pays more for the product but the specific environmental harm is avoided. The market should find the most cost efficient way of meeting the environmental regulation.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 414299
02-16-2020 11:18 PM

 




Post: #168
RE: Socialism a proven a failure
LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-14-2020 06:47 AM)
Socialism a proven a failure

https://www.nwfdailynews.com/opinion/201...en-failure

Most countries that are said to be socialist are actually a hybrid. In fact are not social security, Medicare , Medicaid, etc. socialist programs in and of themselves?

It is stupid and disgusting propaganda, and since the media is not what you are being led to believe, you will find little dissent on this issue-even from media organs such as CNN and MSNBC.

The truth is that most businesses in Venezuela are privately owned. The NWO wants to destroy Venezuela and take it's resources and so it is blaming that old buggyman socialism for Venezuela's ills.

BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT NORWAY IS MORE SOCIALIST THAN VENEZUELA...and it is doing just fine.

Here read this:

Norway Is Far More Socialist Than Venezuela

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/201...venezuela/
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 505352
02-16-2020 11:23 PM

 




Post: #169
RE: Socialism a proven a failure
LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 10:21 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (02-16-2020 10:04 PM)
To your first reply, yes, it help motivate. This is one of the major benefits to both "classes." And, while it doesn't eliminate completely the business cycle as Marx identified and you pointed out, it lessens its severity as do the social programs that can a part of a balanced hybrid system.

Not sure how I feel about the whole carbon credit system but you are thinking complexly about the issue. The problems with industry and pollution is so much more complex than CO2 and there has to be major well-funded oversight agencies with teeth that can protect nature and the lifeforms that depend on it. Many profit generating activities are simply not worth the cost to future generations. Especially when you consider such things as built-in obsolescence and fashion concerns generating endless waste.

Yes there are a number of ways of Introducing e.g. environmental externalities. For instance environmental regulations impose a cost on all products in the market so the consumer pays more for the product but the specific environmental harm is avoided. The market should find the most cost efficient way of meeting the environmental regulation.

Unfortunately, this has meant, in the contemporary era of globalism, the market shifts production to the countries with the least environmental protections and usually the least worker and human rights to boot. Until we have international protocols and the governmental enforcement methods to ensure compliance, there are simply too many ways to game the system. I am not satisfied with the proposition of corporations or the market forces they manipulate determining policies designed to protect us and the natural world upon which we all depend.

In one of the videos I posted yesterday on this thread, on the river in Indonesia, the takeaway from all of the appalling abuses and deaths and diseases caused by lax environmental standards was a ten percent savings on textile production. Savings and profits for everyone chasing the almighty dollar, but is any of that worth the 150,000 deaths a year of children exposed to the toxins carelessly expelled into water supplies.

It is not enough to talk about consumer preference and demand when the purchasing power of consumers is kept artificially at desperation levels. Most cannot opt for organic food nor can they do anything but shop for the cheapest wal mart garments. The wealthy might be able to virtue signal all day and lecture the rest of us about veganism or sustainable living but most people are constrained by immediate economic limitations to what the megacorporations provide as low cost alternatives in the market place. That much of such low cost alternatives are drenched in poisons and manufactured by near-slaves are simply not thoughts they can afford to entertain. And so, the beat goes on.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 534965
Yesterday 03:09 AM

 




Post: #170
RE: Socialism a proven a failure
Those who planned to drop out and quit paying taxes to collapse the government now wonder if the elites will crash the economy so the ruling class can send the 99% off to the concentration camps.
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