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How do you know what you know?
SkeptiSchism
Registered User
User ID: 450243
05-24-2021 08:10 PM

Posts: 36,383




Post: #61
RE: How do you know what you know?
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There are objective truths we all seem to agree on. The empirical method was invented for this purpose. Given a set of circumstances and tools to measure variables we all consistently come up with similar results with some statistical range of acceptability.

Then there are subjective truths, my guess is that is what you are aiming for in this thread. For us to explain and justify our subjective truths. But if it was explainable, demonstrable it would no longer fit in the realm of subjectivity but instead objectivity.

IMO we have to agree that we all have our own version of subjective truths and perhaps that is what you have issue with, calling anything subjective as truth. I can agree to that statement, maybe call them subjectivisms leaving the term truth out because truth is objective requiring two or more witnesses.

My subjectivisms are my own, influenced by others over time and the Word which I read daily. I call them truths because I am assured of their reality through faith.

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Orion's Belt
Banned
User ID: 417946
05-24-2021 10:32 PM

Posts: 5,802




Post: #62
RE: How do you know what you know?
SkeptiSchism  Wrote: (05-24-2021 08:10 PM)
There are objective truths we all seem to agree on. The empirical method was invented for this purpose. Given a set of circumstances and tools to measure variables we all consistently come up with similar results with some statistical range of acceptability.

Then there are subjective truths, my guess is that is what you are aiming for in this thread. For us to explain and justify our subjective truths. But if it was explainable, demonstrable it would no longer fit in the realm of subjectivity but instead objectivity.

IMO we have to agree that we all have our own version of subjective truths and perhaps that is what you have issue with, calling anything subjective as truth. I can agree to that statement, maybe call them subjectivisms leaving the term truth out because truth is objective requiring two or more witnesses.

My subjectivisms are my own, influenced by others over time and the Word which I read daily. I call them truths because I am assured of their reality through faith.

Good post.

But perceived truth often doubles for real truth.

Is what you perceive truth, real truth?

Or is the truth what you make it?

That's where this world gets confused.
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DSMith
lop guest
User ID: 552262
05-24-2021 10:43 PM

 




Post: #63
RE: How do you know what you know?
mans wisdom is always a half truth. WE can not know full truths because limited viewing points leave us with only a point of view. Physical reality gives us a body to experience with, it creates desire, creates relativity..........but not truth.

When we accept we can only know what we can know, and nothing is necessarily a complete truth, it allows us the peace to entertain each others opinions, to compromise, to have compassion, to forgive, to love, to explore without condemnation. It can also allow the opposite.

This to is just a mans wisdom, shallow incomplete........ a half truth.
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Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 585769
05-24-2021 10:59 PM

Posts: 35,407




Post: #64
RE: How do you know what you know?
Regarding religion, parents and grandparents indoctrination(which was a mixed set of ideas), some reading of the bible(not all of it, some childrens' book versions a grandmother encouraged us to read when we slept over at their house, and a few "religious" experiences.

And some historical research, and a little bit of Joseph Campbell.

My dad was a linguist and a professor of anthropology, and in his later years he read the Bible and the Apocrypha and the other one in the original Greek, and studied the gnostic gospels, and other philosophical texts, so he knew a whole lot, contributed to some scholarship.

But because his mom and one of his sisters went off the deep end into evangelical speaking in tongues type stuff he was rather annoyed with it all, wasn't a believer.

So grew up with crazy-ish relatives, basic devout Christians and atheists/agnostic views.

I'd know more about it had the aggressive Evangelicals made it more interesting and weren't so unpleasant.

chuckle

Regarding other knowledge like science and technology, I've studied it and done some experiments.

There's more than one right way to do a brake job....and you get better at it over time from trial, error, and inspiration trying new methods and learning tricks from other techs....

(One of the challenges is not getting dirty or dirtying up the shop floor) I have tricks I learned over many brake jobs....

My religious experiences I would call Gnosis. Not being sure Archons exist, but having an experience when you sense for sure there is a higher power present....

That's why I was referring to myself as a gnostic Christian for a while after one, just as a personal identifier.

Not as a "Jesus" or Hell Christian.

I identify as Christian because my ancestors (the ones I've known) were Christian, and I went to Methodist Chrurch and others as a kid.

But I'm not a Jesus or Hell Christian.

I don't think Jewish people, Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc are doomed to Hell for not claiming Jesus.

That's what turned me off religion until about ten years ago, I was an atheist because people who told me things like that didn't behave at all like Jesus, or even project any joy in their own salvation.

chuckle

So with religion I'm still part agnostic....

Unitarian Church is probably the right place for me to congregate...

chuckle
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2021 11:02 PM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
Felix
Jumpin Fractals
User ID: 587793
05-24-2021 11:08 PM

Posts: 5,568




Post: #65
RE: How do you know what you know?
Experience. And this is why ones truth differs from another’s. We all have differing experiences in life.

Ism this, ist that. Screw all the ismists!

LIBRARIES of KNOWLEDGE

http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-11057.html
(Not my thread. I just like it that much)
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Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 585769
05-24-2021 11:09 PM

Posts: 35,407




Post: #66
RE: How do you know what you know?
I think it's always a good idea to be willing to update beliefs in light of better information.

That doesn't work very well with religion in most cases, but I had a discussion with some Jehovah Witnesses who came by my house to recruit me, and they were excited they were pretty sure they had been pronouncing Yahweh wrong and had recently learned the right way....

And were excited about it.

So it's not exclusive to science that you can enjoy new information....

At the time I was still an atheist or a recent re-Christian.

chuckle

But I learned from my dad to enjoy conversations with evangelicals.

After he got interested in the old versions of religious texts he enjoyed it when the Mormon kids came around on their missions, because it was fun for him to test their knowledge, and he was impressed by it, and he had the opportunity to share with them some of his.(He should have stayed a professor, that's what he was best as)

Anyhow he shared that with me and since then I'm more open to and try to have fun with evangelicals, when I encounter them and be friendly etc....

And it's been fun and pleasant.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 586756
05-24-2021 11:13 PM

 




Post: #67
RE: How do you know what you know?
Felix  Wrote: (05-24-2021 11:08 PM)
Experience. And this is why ones truth differs from another’s. We all have differing experiences in life.

Desire
Clashing besires
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Xeno Heresy
Registered User
User ID: 557004
05-24-2021 11:19 PM

Posts: 10,050




Post: #68
RE: How do you know what you know?
Orions Belt  Wrote: (05-24-2021 06:15 PM)
I mean, I know you think you know, and that has value, but how do you really know?

I know, different faith systems always think they have the awnsers, and claim to know truth, I get that, but the people who refuse belief systems have the same faith in what that think they know.

Just how do you believe you know anything?

That's faith in belief.

Your belief, your truth.

Problem with that is you have to convince others to maintain it.

So tell me how you know what you know.

I wasn't sure that I know what I know until you questioned that you know what I know that I know and now I'm sure I know what I know that you know that I know because you clearly don't like knowing what I know that I know.

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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 587791
05-24-2021 11:23 PM

 




Post: #69
RE: How do you know what you know?
Studies validate other studies. Otherwise they go invalidated. The disgrace of Pons and Flescheman was a thing but subsequently not. Never heard of anyone besides Talyarkin that got more bad press. That irons all of those bad studies with the smoothness of clean linen. The reproducibility crisis.

Faith requires accountability. In scientific institutions this has been destroyed utterly without the foundational pillar which is reproducibility. Without this any study is meaningless. Without accountability, there is no viable action.
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Orion's Belt
Banned
User ID: 417946
05-25-2021 12:48 AM

Posts: 5,802




Post: #70
RE: How do you know what you know?
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (05-24-2021 10:59 PM)
Regarding religion, parents and grandparents indoctrination(which was a mixed set of ideas), some reading of the bible(not all of it, some childrens' book versions a grandmother encouraged us to read when we slept over at their house, and a few "religious" experiences.

And some historical research, and a little bit of Joseph Campbell.

My dad was a linguist and a professor of anthropology, and in his later years he read the Bible and the Apocrypha and the other one in the original Greek, and studied the gnostic gospels, and other philosophical texts, so he knew a whole lot, contributed to some scholarship.

But because his mom and one of his sisters went off the deep end into evangelical speaking in tongues type stuff he was rather annoyed with it all, wasn't a believer.

So grew up with crazy-ish relatives, basic devout Christians and atheists/agnostic views.

I'd know more about it had the aggressive Evangelicals made it more interesting and weren't so unpleasant.

chuckle

Regarding other knowledge like science and technology, I've studied it and done some experiments.

There's more than one right way to do a brake job....and you get better at it over time from trial, error, and inspiration trying new methods and learning tricks from other techs....

(One of the challenges is not getting dirty or dirtying up the shop floor) I have tricks I learned over many brake jobs....

My religious experiences I would call Gnosis. Not being sure Archons exist, but having an experience when you sense for sure there is a higher power present....

That's why I was referring to myself as a gnostic Christian for a while after one, just as a personal identifier.

Not as a "Jesus" or Hell Christian.

I identify as Christian because my ancestors (the ones I've known) were Christian, and I went to Methodist Chrurch and others as a kid.

But I'm not a Jesus or Hell Christian.

I don't think Jewish people, Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc are doomed to Hell for not claiming Jesus.

That's what turned me off religion until about ten years ago, I was an atheist because people who told me things like that didn't behave at all like Jesus, or even project any joy in their own salvation.

chuckle

So with religion I'm still part agnostic....

Unitarian Church is probably the right place for me to congregate...

chuckle

I'm not so different.

I've studied all the books as well.

You come off with a greater sense.
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Orion's Belt
Banned
User ID: 417946
05-25-2021 12:49 AM

Posts: 5,802




Post: #71
RE: How do you know what you know?
Xeno Heresy  Wrote: (05-24-2021 11:19 PM)
Orions Belt  Wrote: (05-24-2021 06:15 PM)
I mean, I know you think you know, and that has value, but how do you really know?

I know, different faith systems always think they have the awnsers, and claim to know truth, I get that, but the people who refuse belief systems have the same faith in what that think they know.

Just how do you believe you know anything?

That's faith in belief.

Your belief, your truth.

Problem with that is you have to convince others to maintain it.

So tell me how you know what you know.

I wasn't sure that I know what I know until you questioned that you know what I know that I know and now I'm sure I know what I know that you know that I know because you clearly don't like knowing what I know that I know.

But how do you know you know?

Because you just know?
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Luvapottamus
Registered User
User ID: 585769
05-25-2021 01:01 AM

Posts: 35,407




Post: #72
RE: How do you know what you know?
Orions Belt  Wrote: (05-25-2021 12:48 AM)
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (05-24-2021 10:59 PM)
Regarding religion, parents and grandparents indoctrination(which was a mixed set of ideas), some reading of the bible(not all of it, some childrens' book versions a grandmother encouraged us to read when we slept over at their house, and a few "religious" experiences.

And some historical research, and a little bit of Joseph Campbell.

My dad was a linguist and a professor of anthropology, and in his later years he read the Bible and the Apocrypha and the other one in the original Greek, and studied the gnostic gospels, and other philosophical texts, so he knew a whole lot, contributed to some scholarship.

But because his mom and one of his sisters went off the deep end into evangelical speaking in tongues type stuff he was rather annoyed with it all, wasn't a believer.

So grew up with crazy-ish relatives, basic devout Christians and atheists/agnostic views.

I'd know more about it had the aggressive Evangelicals made it more interesting and weren't so unpleasant.

chuckle

Regarding other knowledge like science and technology, I've studied it and done some experiments.

There's more than one right way to do a brake job....and you get better at it over time from trial, error, and inspiration trying new methods and learning tricks from other techs....

(One of the challenges is not getting dirty or dirtying up the shop floor) I have tricks I learned over many brake jobs....

My religious experiences I would call Gnosis. Not being sure Archons exist, but having an experience when you sense for sure there is a higher power present....

That's why I was referring to myself as a gnostic Christian for a while after one, just as a personal identifier.

Not as a "Jesus" or Hell Christian.

I identify as Christian because my ancestors (the ones I've known) were Christian, and I went to Methodist Chrurch and others as a kid.

But I'm not a Jesus or Hell Christian.

I don't think Jewish people, Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc are doomed to Hell for not claiming Jesus.

That's what turned me off religion until about ten years ago, I was an atheist because people who told me things like that didn't behave at all like Jesus, or even project any joy in their own salvation.

chuckle

So with religion I'm still part agnostic....

Unitarian Church is probably the right place for me to congregate...

chuckle

I'm not so different.

I've studied all the books as well.

You come off with a greater sense.

I haven't.(Studied the religious texts much)

My dad was the more knowledgeable person, and I never learned most of what he knew.

But he introduced me to his way of looking at things based on anthropology.

He learned salvage linguistics from a Catholic Missionary.

At the time he was earining his doctoral degree he wanted to know how to learn a language from scratch "if he fell out of an airplane over the Amazon"

Catholic missionaries had linguists who were the best at that.

And the one who taught him was okay with him being agnostic.

chuckle

So as a Kid, instead of beating Jesus into me, what my father did was tell me ghost stories when we camped in his tepee.

chuckle

And when me and my sister asked how that related to the scary stories his mother told us about Hell....he provided clues.

The stores he told us were European Christian mostly Ghost/spooky stories, and really great scary ghost stories he learned from that Catholic missionary....

chuckle

Kids like spooky stories,

They don't like being told they are going to HELL for no reason by adults who can't explain their own FAITH.
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2021 01:01 AM by Luvapottamus.) Quote this message in a reply
flatland
ifixit
User ID: 516779
05-25-2021 01:01 AM

Posts: 3,347




Post: #73
RE: How do you know what you know?
SkeptiSchism  Wrote: (05-24-2021 08:10 PM)
There are objective truths we all seem to agree on. The empirical method was invented for this purpose. Given a set of circumstances and tools to measure variables we all consistently come up with similar results with some statistical range of acceptability.

Then there are subjective truths, my guess is that is what you are aiming for in this thread. For us to explain and justify our subjective truths. But if it was explainable, demonstrable it would no longer fit in the realm of subjectivity but instead objectivity.

IMO we have to agree that we all have our own version of subjective truths and perhaps that is what you have issue with, calling anything subjective as truth. I can agree to that statement, maybe call them subjectivisms leaving the term truth out because truth is objective requiring two or more witnesses.

My subjectivisms are my own, influenced by others over time and the Word which I read daily. I call them truths because I am assured of their reality through faith.

Really they are subjective beliefs.

I'm gathering this thread is in regards to whether any religious beliefs are in fact true. And of course they are not.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 587721
05-25-2021 01:02 AM

 




Post: #74
RE: How do you know what you know?
Faith and Truth (FAT), at it again

Face it, all of you are fatty

Reverse it, you get taffy

Tariffy shaming is beneath you all ffs
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Orion's Belt
Banned
User ID: 417946
05-25-2021 01:03 AM

Posts: 5,802




Post: #75
RE: How do you know what you know?
Luvapottamus  Wrote: (05-25-2021 01:01 AM)
Orions Belt  Wrote: (05-25-2021 12:48 AM)
I'm not so different.

I've studied all the books as well.

You come off with a greater sense.

I haven't.(Studied the religious texts much)

My dad was the more knowledgeable person, and I never learned most of what he knew.

But he introduced me to his way of looking at things based on anthropology.

He learned salvage linguistics from a Catholic Missionary.

At the time he was earining his doctoral degree he wanted to know how to learn a language from scratch "if he fell out of an airplane over the Amazon"

Catholic missionaries had linguists who were the best at that.

And the one who taught him was okay with him being agnostic.

chuckle

So as a Kid, instead of beating Jesus into me, what my father did was tell me ghost stories when we camped in his tepee.

chuckle

And when me and my sister asked how that related to the scary stories his mother told us about Hell....he provided clues.

The stores he told us were European Christian mostly Ghost/spooky stories, and really great scary ghost stories he learned from that Catholic missionary....

chuckle

Kids like spooky stories,

They don't like being told they are going to HELL for no reason by adults who can't explain their own FAITH.

Sounds like a wise man.

I dont push my faith on my kids either.

I give them hints to find it.
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