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Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
The Obamanation
Registered User
User ID: 434473
05-24-2018 01:50 AM

Posts: 382



Post: #1
Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
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Let me know your opinion. Is this technology being supressed? Or do you think the German researchers are being honest? Is mankind doomed to be trapped on Earth forever?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apos-impo...00702.html

Quote:he German team copied the NASA experiment exactly, piping microwaves into the cavity, using lazers to monitor movement and a spring to measure thrust. The setup did indeed produce thrust, as indicated by the spring. But when the researchers positioned the microwaves so they definitely could ­not produce thrust in the direction of the spring, the drive pushed just as hard. Furthermore, the same degree of thrust remained even after power was cut in half. So clearly, there are other factors at play.

The team suggests that the thrust may actually be produced by an interaction between the cables that power the microwave amplifier and Earth's magnetic field. If this is the case, it won't work in space, a distance away from Earth. However, the results are not yet conclusive. Martin Tajmar, who led the German research, told New Scientistthat, "It definitely looks more bad than it looked before, but it will take another year of testing before we know for sure. I will test everything."

This is very disappointing. I was hoping to see spaceships travelling to other planets in my lifetime, maybe even to other stars.

Looks like we're back to the drawing board...

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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 381174
05-24-2018 01:56 AM

 



Post: #2
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
Hmm why are they measuring thrust? I thought the EM drive created a bubble in which the mass has no inertia, thus no mass as we classically define mass.

Probably the only way to test it is to make some drones, send them out in space and see if the EM drive works.
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LunaC
Lurkstrocity
User ID: 441651
05-24-2018 01:58 AM

Posts: 2,494



Post: #3
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
If they're worth the grant money they get it's possible because it's a default thought of special relativity. I don't personally believe one can generate the sort of spacial indifference that generates the thrust in this theory, but I operate on a different perception of the Universe and it's design.

Fléctere Si Néqueo Súperos Acheronta Movebo
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2018 01:59 AM by LunaC.) Quote this message in a reply
The Obamanation
Registered User
User ID: 434473
05-24-2018 02:03 AM

Posts: 382



Post: #4
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
LoP Guest  Wrote: (05-24-2018 01:56 AM)
Hmm why are they measuring thrust? I thought the EM drive created a bubble in which the mass has no inertia, thus no mass as we classically define mass.

Probably the only way to test it is to make some drones, send them out in space and see if the EM drive works.

You might be thinking of Alcubierre drive, which has a positive mass at the front of the ship and a negative mass at the back, causing it to enter a state of perpetual free-fall towards the positive mass. Basically it warps space around the ship.

We can't build that yet because we don't know of any substances with negative mass.

The EM drive works by shooting microwaves into a funnel and for some reason they are measuring thrust from it. At first it was suspected to push on the quantum foam, but now these German researchers think it was pushing on the Earth's magnetic field instead.

If it's pushing on Earth's magnetic field, it would be useless outside Earth's magnetic field. You couldn't go anywhere with it.

Maybe it could still be useful for minor altitude changes of satellites in orbit? Just a thought.

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LunaC
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User ID: 441651
05-24-2018 02:04 AM

Posts: 2,494



Post: #5
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
The Obamanation  Wrote: (05-24-2018 02:03 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (05-24-2018 01:56 AM)
Hmm why are they measuring thrust? I thought the EM drive created a bubble in which the mass has no inertia, thus no mass as we classically define mass.

Probably the only way to test it is to make some drones, send them out in space and see if the EM drive works.

You might be thinking of Alcubierre drive, which has a positive mass at the front of the ship and a negative mass at the back, causing it to enter a state of perpetual free-fall towards the positive mass. Basically it warps space around the ship.

We can't build that yet because we don't know of any substances with negative mass.

The EM drive works by shooting microwaves into a funnel and for some reason they are measuring thrust from it. At first it was suspected to push on the quantum foam, but now these German researchers think it was pushing on the Earth's magnetic field instead.

If it's pushing on Earth's magnetic field, it would be useless outside Earth's magnetic field. You couldn't go anywhere with it.

Maybe it could still be useful for minor altitude changes of satellites in orbit? Just a thought.

Guilty here. I didn't read n stuf.
[Image: tenor.gif]

Fléctere Si Néqueo Súperos Acheronta Movebo
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 381174
05-24-2018 02:17 AM

 



Post: #6
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
The Obamanation  Wrote: (05-24-2018 02:03 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (05-24-2018 01:56 AM)
Hmm why are they measuring thrust? I thought the EM drive created a bubble in which the mass has no inertia, thus no mass as we classically define mass.

Probably the only way to test it is to make some drones, send them out in space and see if the EM drive works.

You might be thinking of Alcubierre drive, which has a positive mass at the front of the ship and a negative mass at the back, causing it to enter a state of perpetual free-fall towards the positive mass. Basically it warps space around the ship.

We can't build that yet because we don't know of any substances with negative mass.

The EM drive works by shooting microwaves into a funnel and for some reason they are measuring thrust from it. At first it was suspected to push on the quantum foam, but now these German researchers think it was pushing on the Earth's magnetic field instead.

If it's pushing on Earth's magnetic field, it would be useless outside Earth's magnetic field. You couldn't go anywhere with it.

Maybe it could still be useful for minor altitude changes of satellites in orbit? Just a thought.

Hmm I remember reading some of the white papers on that drive and the theory was as I described, it creates a bubble of zero inertia.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 381174
05-24-2018 02:21 AM

 



Post: #7
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
LoP Guest  Wrote: (05-24-2018 02:17 AM)
The Obamanation  Wrote: (05-24-2018 02:03 AM)
You might be thinking of Alcubierre drive, which has a positive mass at the front of the ship and a negative mass at the back, causing it to enter a state of perpetual free-fall towards the positive mass. Basically it warps space around the ship.

We can't build that yet because we don't know of any substances with negative mass.

The EM drive works by shooting microwaves into a funnel and for some reason they are measuring thrust from it. At first it was suspected to push on the quantum foam, but now these German researchers think it was pushing on the Earth's magnetic field instead.

If it's pushing on Earth's magnetic field, it would be useless outside Earth's magnetic field. You couldn't go anywhere with it.

Maybe it could still be useful for minor altitude changes of satellites in orbit? Just a thought.

Hmm I remember reading some of the white papers on that drive and the theory was as I described, it creates a bubble of zero inertia.

Okay so it doesn't negate inertia, it alters it.

The idea is that if photons have an inertial mass, they must experience inertia when they reflect. But the Unruh radiation in this case is tiny. So small in fact that it can interact with its immediate environment. In the case of the EmDrive, this is the truncated cone.

The cone allows Unruh radiation of a certain size at the large end but only a smaller wavelength at the other end. So the inertia of photons inside the cavity must change as they bounce back and forth. And to conserve momentum, this must generate a thrust.


https://www.technologyreview.com/s/60129...-thruster/
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The Obamanation
Registered User
User ID: 434473
05-24-2018 02:46 AM

Posts: 382



Post: #8
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
LoP Guest  Wrote: (05-24-2018 02:21 AM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (05-24-2018 02:17 AM)
Hmm I remember reading some of the white papers on that drive and the theory was as I described, it creates a bubble of zero inertia.

Okay so it doesn't negate inertia, it alters it.

The idea is that if photons have an inertial mass, they must experience inertia when they reflect. But the Unruh radiation in this case is tiny. So small in fact that it can interact with its immediate environment. In the case of the EmDrive, this is the truncated cone.

The cone allows Unruh radiation of a certain size at the large end but only a smaller wavelength at the other end. So the inertia of photons inside the cavity must change as they bounce back and forth. And to conserve momentum, this must generate a thrust.


https://www.technologyreview.com/s/60129...-thruster/

That's interesting. When you think about it it's weird that photons are massless but can still exert pressure on objects.

It sounds like it works using radiation pressure similar to solar sails, but in a different way.

Years ago I read about a plan to send tiny cellphone sized drones to nearby star systems using solar sails pushed by lasers here on Earth. Since the drone would be so small and the sail would collect so much energy over time, they would reach huge velocities. I can't find the article though.

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conspiracyparty
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User ID: 372620
05-24-2018 03:22 AM

Posts: 961



Post: #9
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
would be nice to have a colony on mars before the century is over.
(if humanity manages to survive till then).
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2018 03:23 AM by conspiracyparty.) Quote this message in a reply
LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 423583
05-24-2018 04:24 AM

 



Post: #10
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
oh itl work....


as soon as we can get nuclear type power in the size of a battery watch then stick about a hundred on it.......
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2am Breathe
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User ID: 441680
05-24-2018 04:27 AM

Posts: 8,126



Post: #11
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
I read the same article.

The EM drive was always 'science fiction'.

However, with this experiment, it may have great applications with Satellites in earth orbit.

It seems like it won't help with Mars or Interstellar voyages.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 441620
05-24-2018 05:12 AM

 



Post: #12
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
Likely a moot point, since we "lost" the magic orange aluminum foil that enabled space travel.



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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 442041
05-24-2018 05:32 AM

 



Post: #13
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
The Obamanation  Wrote: (05-24-2018 01:50 AM)
Let me know your opinion. Is this technology being supressed? Or do you think the German researchers are being honest? Is mankind doomed to be trapped on Earth forever?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apos-impo...00702.html

Quote:he German team copied the NASA experiment exactly, piping microwaves into the cavity, using lazers to monitor movement and a spring to measure thrust. The setup did indeed produce thrust, as indicated by the spring. But when the researchers positioned the microwaves so they definitely could ­not produce thrust in the direction of the spring, the drive pushed just as hard. Furthermore, the same degree of thrust remained even after power was cut in half. So clearly, there are other factors at play.

The team suggests that the thrust may actually be produced by an interaction between the cables that power the microwave amplifier and Earth's magnetic field. If this is the case, it won't work in space, a distance away from Earth. However, the results are not yet conclusive. Martin Tajmar, who led the German research, told New Scientistthat, "It definitely looks more bad than it looked before, but it will take another year of testing before we know for sure. I will test everything."

This is very disappointing. I was hoping to see spaceships travelling to other planets in my lifetime, maybe even to other stars.

Looks like we're back to the drawing board...

Don't know which test article they tried to duplicate.

NASA tested a couple.

The "Cannae" drive would be problematic.

The Shawyer EMDrive should have worked.

Both are supposed to be filled with a dielectric material.

If they are using lasers they have an empty chamber.

If they are reproducing the NASA experiment they are also using trivial amounts of power.

So they aren't really reproducing a bad experiment and they aren't really getting the same result.

This is supposed to tell us what exactly?

This isn't rocket science (actually it is) you launch a test article into space and see what happens.

Don't understand what all the pussyfooting around is about.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 442471
05-24-2018 05:33 AM

 



Post: #14
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
we must know if it is possible, many bothans have died to bring us this information
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RiskyRob
Mac Daddy
User ID: 442461
05-24-2018 05:35 AM

Posts: 4,035



Post: #15
RE: Researchers: EM drive may be impossible
Very interesting findings. I'm disappointed, too.

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