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I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 397455
09-12-2017 05:41 PM

 



Post: #46
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
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LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:39 PM)
Damrod  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:13 PM)
Life is not easy. No one ever told me it was going to be.

The system we have is still the best one whether you like it or not. The problem we face in the USA is a relatively good system has been hijacked and overpowered by money and special interests.

I am self employed. I have been doing what it is that I do for 30 years. I have only been on my own for the last 8. It has it's pluses and minuses.

The sky did not crack open and money rain down on me because I decided to go into business for myself. There has been some hard times and some good times.

Most people are in their current situation because of bad choices they made somewhere along the line. Directly or indirectly, you make bad choices and you pay for it in some way. Maybe right away and maybe not for a long time but we are all accountable for the choices we make.

If you mess around and get hooked on drugs or become an alcoholic or maybe a big impulsive money spender, there will be ramifications for that somewhere down the line.

I take it youve never lived amongst the poor? What Ive observed is that a higher number than avg, Id say most of them, have been in some near death accident sometime in thier lives, even going back to when they were a baby

An australian scientist did brain scans on hoarders for example and found the majority had frontal lobe brain damage.

There was a show on Dr Phil that correlated many depressed people with having had an undiagnosed brain injury.

The field of human brain study is still in its infantile stage. Theres so much we dont know and we shouldnt rush to judgement implying some people are lazy or unmotivated. The alcohol and drug addictions too have been correlated as well with former injury or some amiss in the brain

And Im specifying 1st world nations btw. 3rd world nations literally have no choice with the corrupt govts they live under
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 410492
09-12-2017 05:43 PM

 



Post: #47
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
Live within your means.

What does that mean? Get a land-line over a cell phone, get the equivalent of a modem internet connection over broadband, replace the cable box with an antenna and converter (because you are still using that CRT screen you bought in the last century at a yard sale).

Don't drive your car everywhere - walk or bike, or use public transportation. If you bought a house and the mortgage payments are killing you, its time to sell and go rent a shack someplace.

Trust me, your kids don't need a room for each one of them.

I have a cellphone - true, I also have internet connection (via my cell phone). My computer is 8 years old, I rely on public transportation and medical transportation (disabled you see), and I pick and choose carefully which services I have and what I do.

I eat out once a month. Eating out means a box chicken dinner or a bagged fast food dinner. Rest of the month I eat at home.

Even though I am collecting a paltry sum, I am socking away 10 - 50 dollars a month for rainy-days. No I won't tell you how much I have in the bank "saved" for later. Because bragging about how much you have tends to make your family and friends take the borrower route. If they think you can't spare change they won't ask you for change.

Bu clothing from thrift stores, then be careful with what you have.

Lastly, don't have children. They are expensive and will never leave your bank account alone.chuckle
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 397455
09-12-2017 06:01 PM

 



Post: #48
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:43 PM)
Live within your means.

What does that mean? Get a land-line over a cell phone, get the equivalent of a modem internet connection over broadband, replace the cable box with an antenna and converter (because you are still using that CRT screen you bought in the last century at a yard sale).

Don't drive your car everywhere - walk or bike, or use public transportation. If you bought a house and the mortgage payments are killing you, its time to sell and go rent a shack someplace.

Trust me, your kids don't need a room for each one of them.

I have a cellphone - true, I also have internet connection (via my cell phone). My computer is 8 years old, I rely on public transportation and medical transportation (disabled you see), and I pick and choose carefully which services I have and what I do.

I eat out once a month. Eating out means a box chicken dinner or a bagged fast food dinner. Rest of the month I eat at home.

Even though I am collecting a paltry sum, I am socking away 10 - 50 dollars a month for rainy-days. No I won't tell you how much I have in the bank "saved" for later. Because bragging about how much you have tends to make your family and friends take the borrower route. If they think you can't spare change they won't ask you for change.

Bu clothing from thrift stores, then be careful with what you have.

Lastly, don't have children. They are expensive and will never leave your bank account alone.chuckle

And there are many stories about people who lived extremely frugal and yet died with a half million or a million or more in the bank account without ever getting to enjoy it. And cause they left no heirs the state took their money. So whats your point? Theres a balance to everything.
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Apostle of Reality
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User ID: 411931
09-12-2017 06:03 PM

Posts: 6,406



Post: #49
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:43 PM)
Live within your means.

Who defined the means, and where did I agree to this principal as the de facto baseline?

All Rights Reserved.

Fair Use Notice: 17 U.S.C. § 107. Small sections of copyrighted work may be present in my posts, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

“Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.” - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Democracy dies in darkness.....
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 410492
09-12-2017 06:13 PM

 



Post: #50
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
Apostle of Reality  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:03 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:43 PM)
Live within your means.

Who defined the means, and where did I agree to this principal as the de facto baseline?

Your means most likely is not my means. My means is less than $1000 a month. Your means may be double or triple that.

Debt is the crusher for most people, be it a car loan, student loan, credit cards or a mortgage (and or second mortgage). Accepting debt means you intent to pay that back, if you only earn $1000 a month and take on a debt of 10,000 then your interest payments alone will crush you.

YOU define your own means - what ever your income is live within it.
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Blue Dude
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User ID: 400846
09-12-2017 06:18 PM

Posts: 2,168



Post: #51
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:16 PM)
Blue Dude  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:11 PM)
Rich is a relative concept. You are so much better off than the average person on this planet, that they are sneaking into the USA/Canada/Australia/Europe just to live as the poorest people here.

The single biggest obstacle to the modern poor person is that the Government steals all his savings. And without a pool of capital to put to work to create wealth, you are f**ked.

Tell that to someone who can't pay his rent.

Since it is over your head, are you saying it would be over theirs too?
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 326813
09-12-2017 06:19 PM

 



Post: #52
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
Apostle of Reality  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:03 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:43 PM)
Live within your means.

Who defined the means, and where did I agree to this principal as the de facto baseline?

it doesn't matter whether or not you agree, you can't have what you can't afford.

Western societies have been living way beyond their means since WWII and now it is becoming impossible to keep it up.

Meanwhile since the dawn of time the vast majority of humans have lived at a wealth level of a few $/day. The west will be no exception. That is the way life is for most people and it always has been.

You aren't entitled to any more than anybody else.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 410492
09-12-2017 06:21 PM

 



Post: #53
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:01 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 05:43 PM)
Live within your means.

And there are many stories about people who lived extremely frugal and yet died with a half million or a million or more in the bank account without ever getting to enjoy it. And cause they left no heirs the state took their money. So whats your point? Theres a balance to everything.

The guy said "how do I get a head in this economy".

I didn't say to hold onto that money forever. I didn't define what a rainy day is, nor am I suggesting that he wears rags, eat cat food while socking away 3/4 of his pension/income.

Frankly I have short range, mid range and long term goals.

Short term is to save up sufficient money to put a sizable down payment on property and cover the 'loan' I will have to take for materials for building my own home.

Mid range goal is to have my land and loan payments fall within the limits of my income. Essentially what I am saving per month now plus my rent is what I am expecting to pay on a monthly basis for my tiny home - or small home on an acre or two of decent land that has soil (not dirt, but healthy soil).

Long range goal, to live long enough to enjoy it and to have my payments done and over and use that money for greedy things like a vacation to the hurricane torn Florida Keys. Hopefully they will be rebuilt by then.

I have carefully looked at my income and calculated what I can actually afford within my means. Not just my rent and utilities today, but down the road when I'm paying a mortgage less than my rent per month.

Currently I could set down a minor down payment (minimum) and pay 600 a month in mortgage for a "standard" place to live. If I'm patient and wait a few more years I can set down a larger down-payment and pay only 300 a month.

This minor step from renter to home ownership would bring be up from 'poverty' to lower middle class.

Its all in the long term planning. Of course I waited until my 40's to decide to pay off all of my debts, to stop using credit for everything. If I had started in my twenties things would be a whole lot different for me today.
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Apostle of Reality
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User ID: 411931
09-12-2017 06:30 PM

Posts: 6,406



Post: #54
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:13 PM)
Apostle of Reality  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:03 PM)
Who defined the means, and where did I agree to this principal as the de facto baseline?

Your means most likely is not my means. My means is less than $1000 a month. Your means may be double or triple that.

Debt is the crusher for most people, be it a car loan, student loan, credit cards or a mortgage (and or second mortgage). Accepting debt means you intent to pay that back, if you only earn $1000 a month and take on a debt of 10,000 then your interest payments alone will crush you.

YOU define your own means - what ever your income is live within it.

OK. So if I define my own means, I insist there should be no means anymore to determine. Abundance versus Scarcity economics. Time to move forward as a species. I reject your 'living within your means' BS as a social construct. Now what? I just defined it as fiction.

Putting that aside, you didn't answer my questions. You ducked them.

WHO defined the means. And by that, I mean, WHO said there needed to be a 'living in means' to begin with? Also, where did I agree that there needed to be a means to begin with as the DEFAULT state of existence with NO other solutions or methodology possible?

Please answer.

All Rights Reserved.

Fair Use Notice: 17 U.S.C. § 107. Small sections of copyrighted work may be present in my posts, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

“Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.” - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Democracy dies in darkness.....
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Apostle of Reality
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User ID: 411931
09-12-2017 06:34 PM

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Post: #55
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:19 PM)
Apostle of Reality  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:03 PM)
Who defined the means, and where did I agree to this principal as the de facto baseline?

it doesn't matter whether or not you agree, you can't have what you can't afford.

Who defined the means of what I can or cannot afford, based on things I cannot control? And where did I enter into this agreement? Where's my signature?

Quote:Western societies have been living way beyond their means since WWII and now it is becoming impossible to keep it up.

Again, who defines means? What entity did so, that is so correct and right, that this idea must never be challenged? Where does your authority insisting, that everyone should live within their means, comes from? Who made the statement?

Quote:Meanwhile since the dawn of time the vast majority of humans have lived at a wealth level of a few $/day. The west will be no exception. That is the way life is for most people and it always has been.

You sure? There's no other alternatives? None? Not at all?

Quote:You aren't entitled to any more than anybody else.

I don't recall mentioning entitlements, at all. I asked 2 very simple questions.

1.) Who defined the means you speak of
2.) Where did I enter into this agreement?

Can you please answer both of them?

All Rights Reserved.

Fair Use Notice: 17 U.S.C. § 107. Small sections of copyrighted work may be present in my posts, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

“Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.” - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Democracy dies in darkness.....
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 397555
09-12-2017 06:38 PM

 



Post: #56
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
Communism or socialism won't help, it will further entrench existing wealth and make everyone even poorer.

To this point we've had creeping communism/socialism mixed with some "capitalism" but to have a true free market the government must be reduced to a fraction of it's current size.

But that won't happen, instead the socialists and communists will win and the public will follow the pied pipers off the cliff.

Theres just too much temptation to believe in unicorns, fairies and free lunches for all.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 397455
09-12-2017 06:45 PM

 



Post: #57
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:21 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:01 PM)
And there are many stories about people who lived extremely frugal and yet died with a half million or a million or more in the bank account without ever getting to enjoy it. And cause they left no heirs the state took their money. So whats your point? Theres a balance to everything.

The guy said "how do I get a head in this economy".

I didn't say to hold onto that money forever. I didn't define what a rainy day is, nor am I suggesting that he wears rags, eat cat food while socking away 3/4 of his pension/income.

Frankly I have short range, mid range and long term goals.

Short term is to save up sufficient money to put a sizable down payment on property and cover the 'loan' I will have to take for materials for building my own home.

Mid range goal is to have my land and loan payments fall within the limits of my income. Essentially what I am saving per month now plus my rent is what I am expecting to pay on a monthly basis for my tiny home - or small home on an acre or two of decent land that has soil (not dirt, but healthy soil).

Long range goal, to live long enough to enjoy it and to have my payments done and over and use that money for greedy things like a vacation to the hurricane torn Florida Keys. Hopefully they will be rebuilt by then.

I have carefully looked at my income and calculated what I can actually afford within my means. Not just my rent and utilities today, but down the road when I'm paying a mortgage less than my rent per month.

Currently I could set down a minor down payment (minimum) and pay 600 a month in mortgage for a "standard" place to live. If I'm patient and wait a few more years I can set down a larger down-payment and pay only 300 a month.

This minor step from renter to home ownership would bring be up from 'poverty' to lower middle class.

Its all in the long term planning. Of course I waited until my 40's to decide to pay off all of my debts, to stop using credit for everything. If I had started in my twenties things would be a whole lot different for me today.

Sounds good now that you better explained it.

I also agree on your specifying "lower middle class" as your goal, that your able to save up for it and invest in a property

The three ranges we have now is ridiculous. Poverty, middle and upper is so erroneous and broad its stupid

I proposed nine classifications, with each class split into another three.

Extreme poverty : homelessness, shelter living
Mid Poverty : apt or trailer, next to no disposable, spendable income, reliant on welfare, or support.
Upper poverty : Low end home ownership or nicer apt living with some spendable income

Lower Middle class: Home ownership but paycheck to paycheck . Able to enjoy some of lifes luxuries and recreation, independance
Middle class: home ownership with savings account and able to take vacations and afford dependable newer cars.
Upper middle class: Investments and portfolios, able to pay for childrens private schooling and college funds and occasional overseas vacations.

Lower upper class: At millionaire level
Middle upper class: Multi millionaire level
Upper upper class: Billionaire Level
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 326813
09-12-2017 06:54 PM

 



Post: #58
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
Apostle of Reality  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:34 PM)
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:19 PM)
it doesn't matter whether or not you agree, you can't have what you can't afford.

Who defined the means of what I can or cannot afford, based on things I cannot control? And where did I enter into this agreement? Where's my signature?

Quote:Western societies have been living way beyond their means since WWII and now it is becoming impossible to keep it up.

Again, who defines means? What entity did so, that is so correct and right, that this idea must never be challenged? Where does your authority insisting, that everyone should live within their means, comes from? Who made the statement?

Quote:Meanwhile since the dawn of time the vast majority of humans have lived at a wealth level of a few $/day. The west will be no exception. That is the way life is for most people and it always has been.

You sure? There's no other alternatives? None? Not at all?

Quote:You aren't entitled to any more than anybody else.

I don't recall mentioning entitlements, at all. I asked 2 very simple questions.

1.) Who defined the means you speak of
2.) Where did I enter into this agreement?

Can you please answer both of them?

it doesn't matter if you agree.

It has always been about living within your means until the invention of credit and debt.

Hunter gatherers means are defined as what they manage to hunt or gather, there is nothing more unless of course they also steal.

Farmers means are limited to what they can grow.

Traders means are limited to what they can trade.

Wage slaves means are defined according to what they can earn.

Even borrowers means are limited to what they can borrow.

It makes no difference whether you agree or not, your means are finite, limited by something, and like it or not you must by definition live within them.
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LoP Guest
lop guest
User ID: 430454
09-12-2017 06:58 PM

 



Post: #59
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
LoP Guest  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:13 PM)
Apostle of Reality  Wrote: (09-12-2017 06:03 PM)
Who defined the means, and where did I agree to this principal as the de facto baseline?

Your means most likely is not my means. My means is less than $1000 a month. Your means may be double or triple that.

Debt is the crusher for most people, be it a car loan, student loan, credit cards or a mortgage (and or second mortgage). Accepting debt means you intent to pay that back, if you only earn $1000 a month and take on a debt of 10,000 then your interest payments alone will crush you.

YOU define your own means - what ever your income is live within it.

A fool borrows money. Nobody needed to sell their soul for a new car today .. except those that just couldn't wait until they actually earned one to have one. They couldn't wait to show it off to all their friends, neighbors, and family. "Look at me, I'm a success. I drive a new car, not an embarrassing 2nd hand used one like the poor people have to. I'm not poor. I deserve this because everyone else has a new car too." LOL, americans. It does stop with just the car either. Keeping up with the Jones's and have lots of debt is the American way of life. Lmao

I raised 3 kids for 14 years as a single father and never ONCE used credit, nor did I ever become a parasite and expected others to feed, cloth, or house my kids or me. I did what was necessary to raise them well, and that even included continually educating myself for a much better job so I could support and raise them as expected of me. I didn't spend my money on cigarettes and beer for me, I spent it on my kids so they could go to summer camp and take karate lessons. I sacrificed for them. They were my responsibility. I didn't go out dating and dancing or partying whenever I was fortunate to find some time for myself. Instead I opened books and read and studied and learned so I could advance my career so I could provide better for my kids and me.

I never felt entitled to anything I never worked for nor earned. I never whined, biitched, complained, or asked for anything from anyone (I never even asked for or demanded child support from the ex, and she never paid a dime). I never expected it was someone else responsibility to make me a swell job and pay me a lot. It is not someone else's responsibility to fix my life for me. I never blamed anyone but me for everything and anything in my life. That's just not my style. I accept full responsibility for everything in my life. If a car were to hit me while I was out walking tomorrow, even that I would blame on me. It was my choice to be there to allow for that possibility to occur.

I'm sorry, but you're a damn idiot if you're borrow money to maintain a lifestyle. With a mindset like that, you'll never win. Expect to lose. Chumps. Suckers.

I.E. You ARE totally out of control if you buy a new car on credit, you really absolutely are. And you know it. You know you did not NEED that. You could have settled for used. Or even moved closer to work and rode a bus or walked. You know you were too young and ill prepared to begin a family at 19, but you gave into temptation and did so anyhow and now you have the consequences to deal with. These are your problems. Not the system's. Dont expect the system to fux your life of mistakes and poor decisions. The system worked for me. It's not perfect, but it's not f**ked either. Maybe it's your life that's f**ked up, and you did it to yourself when you decided to flunk algebra in high school.

I could mention a dozen paths to success that do not require much money to begin and I have here. But I know everyone blows them off because it sounds like a lot of study and work. I dont even hear a single comment or boo though. It's as if nobody even wants to consider it. My son listened to me though. He told me just last week it looks like he will net over $5 million this year. He tells me this expecting investment advise. My reply is always the same. Invest in yourself. Don't expect someone else to make you a success.
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Chrysophylax
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User ID: 310857
09-12-2017 07:07 PM

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Post: #60
RE: I am really starting to think the system is f**ked. If your poor
Wealth is social. If you want to be in a different economic bracket, all you need to do is act and think like those who are already there.

People forget the use of humor once it becomes useful.

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/johnrkingiv
Http://www.johnrkingiv.com
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